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Atheism Tract - Side 1

Side 1: Atheism – Definition


a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

That is the entire meaning of atheism.

Atheism is not a religion, it is not a belief system.
Atheism is nothing sinister, and nothing to fear.
When it comes to Zeus, we are all atheists.

Side 2: But aren’t atheists bad people?

But aren’t atheists bad people?

Not any more than religious people are. Many people use "holy books" as moral guides, but as much as Christians want us to believe that the Bible is the world’s best guide to morality, it is clearly not.

We are actually programmed with a moral code by our genes and by the societies we live in. Adherence to the Bible is not an indicator of increased morality. In fact the US, the most religious developed country in the world, is far from being the most moral. For example, it has a murder rate over 10 times that of largely atheist Japan, and 2-10 times that of irreligious countries in Europe, with 8 of the 10 most murderous states in the US being in the more religious south, which also boasts the highest divorce rates.

Texas, one of the most religious states in the nation, has the largest percentage of its population in prison, despite having the highest execution rate. Higher than the next 6 states combined. The US, just 5% of the world’s population, has 25% of all prisoners. It has high rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease, partly caused by religiously based "abstinence only" education.

Is this what we should expect from the last bastion of widespread fundimentalist Christianity in the developed world?


So far this has been one of our most popular tracts. Atheists and even many agnostics like it because it delivers one of our most important messages: Religious people do not have a monopoly on morality. We non-believers are as likely as anyone to be good people.

The content is also very quickly clear to people taking it, and although some will immediately drop it when they read the word "atheism", more reasonable people will usually read at least the front and hopefully see the truth about us if they didn’t already know.

This entry was posted in Atheist Tracts by Kazz. Bookmark the permalink.

About Kazz

My name is Shawn Esplin and I am an advocate of Free Thought and general good sense and thought in general. To that end, I encourage people to seriously question the things that they have been taught, especially as children, because many of these things - religious and secular - are taken on faith until we actively choose to seriously examine them for ourselves.

86 thoughts on “Atheism

  1. Yes, atheism is a belief a matter of fact it takes more to believe that there is nothing out there than to believe in Jesus Christ. I don’t think atheist are bad people. Just mislead and blind. They don’t want to be beholden to a higher power. A lot like little children who rebel against their parents. “I want what I want when I want it” and “You are not my boss, I can do what I want when I want.” Just a couple of things I have heard from atheist…

  2. Really? I must be missing out then. Can you give me a list of the standard atheist doctrine? Is there maybe a web site or book that I can get it from? It would certainly be something that our readers would be interested in learning about.

    I’m not quite sure who has the authority to create atheist dogma though, given the fact that it is not an organized group and doesn’t have any undisputed leaders.

    Even the atheistic authors I read and respect have their fair share of atheist critics who would not recognize them as anything special.

    If there is some kind of Atheist Pope out there handing down un-divinely inspired atheist dogma though, please point us to that person.

    As for atheists being like little children who rebel against their parents, I can see the analogy, but it assumes that the Christian God is real.

    To me it seems more like someone I don’t even know telling me that I have not only the father that I know, but a second father who I’ve never met, and they have no evidence to show me that he’s real.

    They still claim that he has long lists of things that I am required to do or not to do, and if I disobey him in any way, despite his unmatched love for me he will use his infinite magical powers to punish me in the most horrible ways imaginable. Forever.

    Since it is nearly impossible to obey every one of his rules for every second of my entire life, and he refuses to forgive me for any sane reason, I need another way out of this eternal torture.

    The only way I can get out of it is to believe that I also have a much older half brother, who I’ve also never seen and whose magical powers there is also no evidence of, and that my second father magically impregnated a young girl with my magical brother.

    He did this just so that my brother could grow up, perform some magic and then be murdered as a blood sacrifice to appease my magical father since the only other thing that he would accept is me and every other person in the world being tortured for eternity.

    I would hope that you could understand my reluctance to believe in such a thing.

    Theists on the other hand seem to me to be like children who persist in their belief that Santa Claus is real when all evidence is to the contrary.

    You have been told the truth about Santa, his elves and Christmas, but you persist in not only claiming that they are all real, but that I am “mislead and blind” for not believing.

  3. Jane:
    Does it take more effort to believe in Jesus than it does to believe in Santa, Zeus or Isis? I can sort of understand why one would think it’s easier to believe that god X exists than to disbelieve – it requires absolutely no thought at all. You can do this with just about everything: ghosts, alien abductions, fairies. But why exactly is it easier to believe in Christianity? Probably because in the Western world it’s the predominant religion. Wow, what a coincidence! :)

    I’m glad you don’t think atheists are bad people. I don’t think Christians are bad people. I don’t think that most are ignorant and intolerant, although that’s the kind of attitude I hear from some Christians.

    I am beholden to higher powers: government, society and humanity as a whole. I am a good citizen, family member and employee. So I reject your argument, although I do think that it can be applied to some atheists, as many of them are young and rebellious.

    In God We Trust.
    I like this judge!
    FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY : In Florida , an atheist created a case against the Easter & ; Passover holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians, Jews & observances of their holy days. The argument was it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized day.
    The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, “Case dismissed.”
    The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, “Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter & others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur & Hanukkah. Yet my client & all other atheists have no such holidays.”
    The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, “But you do. Counsel, your client is woefully ignorant.” The lawyer said, “Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists.”
    The judge said, “The calendar says April 1st is ‘April Fool’s Day.’ Psalm 14:1 states ‘The fool says in his heart, there is no God.’ Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned.”

  5. Just so no one is confused, Paul’s message is a joke (details at, and in my opinion a pretty tired one. Maybe that’s just because I hear it every couple of weeks from one preacher or another.

    If it were true though, I believe that this obviously biased judge would be in danger of losing his job for failure to recuse himself from a case in which he was so clearly unable or unwilling to do his job, which is to impartially interpret the law, and to rule based on that interpretation rather than his own personal beliefs.

    As an off-color joke, my main criticism is that it’s not very funny. Since some people spread it as a true story rather than a joke though, and since even more people fail to realize that it’s a joke, I don’t really like it.

    Probably the most disturbing thing is that so many people would not be surprised by this kind of behavior from a judge, and that some of them even support it and think that there should be more judges like this.

    I have also been informed by a friend that this message has been spammed on multiple posts on his site which has nothing to do with religion. If the message is re-posted in other places on this site then the redundant copies will be removed so we don’t encourage spammers.

  6. Atheist lack belief in God. In other words, Atheist have no position, take no intellectual action, have no belief or unbelief on the matter concerning God. To Atheist it’s a non-issue. Though this may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once your introduced to an idea you can’t stay neutral about it. You invariably make a judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject it, or do something in between. But, you can’t return to a lack of belief position if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual commitment or non-action concerning it. Though I admit that an atheist can claim he lacks belief even after being exposed to an idea and contemplating its rationality, I still assert that a position of some sort is required. This is why the lack of belief defense of atheists isn’t logical. It ignores the reality that people categorize concepts anywhere in the range of total acceptance to total rejection. It’s our nature to do this. We don’t do nothing with information.

    In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see, if they say they have no position, by saying they lack belief, then their position is not open to attack and examination and they can quietly remain atheists.

    The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and are exposing them. Without a doubt there are far more people in the world who believe in God (or a god) than don’t and more and more Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. The majority belief doesn’t make it right, but the increase of examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend their position. This also explains why atheists seem to becoming more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There’s an intellectual battle being waged and both defensive and offensive measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be known and atheism will become extinct.

  7. Bob Evans: The world was rolled up by a giant celestial dung beetle. He created everything here, which is why we have so many species of beetles!

    Beetles comprise 40% of all described insect species (about 350,000 of them so far), and new ones are being discovered all the time. It is estimated that there are as many as 5 to 8 million different species of beetles in the world.

    If you’re serious though, the short answer is that it was formed by a series of natural events based on the basic laws of the universe such as gravity and momentum.

    Here is a long (and probably boring) video that will give you part of the answer, but if you want to know more there are plenty of books, videos and other resources that you can look through to find the answers. It is a complicated issue though, so if you want to fully understand it, don’t expect to do it in a day.

  8. Mike Trotter: The reason that calling atheism a “lack of belief” is most proper is because not everyone who does not believe in gods has even considered the concept, and many who have thought about it are unsure.

    The only way to be a theist is to actively believe in a god or gods, and anyone who is not a theist is either agnostic (saying that we can’t know one way or the other) or an atheist, which is the default position. Just like not believing in faeries, if we had a word for that, would be the default position.

    If you don’t believe in something, whether or not you’ve heard of it, you have a lack of belief in it.

    In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see, if they say they have no position, by saying they lack belief, then their position is not open to attack and examination and they can quietly remain atheists.

    Does it seem like we’re trying to “quietly remain atheists” to you? I would like for people to be able to disbelieve in peace without having to deal with preachy theists if that’s what they want to do, but I’m not hiding. If you have a way to prove any gods are real or that the Bible is a reliable source of history and our best moral guide, then bring it on. I can almost guarantee you won’t be able to, but if you can then you’ll rack up a bunch of converts!

    In the end, the truth will be known and atheism will become extinct.

    I think you’re right. Once everyone realizes that there are no gods, there will be no more need to use the word atheism.

  9. I just wanted to respond to some of the things I’ve read here and maybe add my own thoughts. I have to disagree with the statement that atheists “take no intellectual action” or that we don’t have a position at all! I think our position is quite clear and we are as steadfast in that belief as any religion is in theirs. That belief being that there is no God and nothing beyond this life. Agnostics, as I understand it, believe that it is impossible for anyone to either prove or disprove the existence of any God, and that is closer to not taking a position in my opinion. I disagree that we “take no intellectual action”; I have thought all my life about it and have come to my conclusion based on all that thought. I continue to think about it every time someone challenges my beliefs or religion is thrust upon me against my wishes and beliefs. I know how Jewish people feel in a world of Christianity. Everywhere I go, it’s a part of everything. I can’t even enroll my kids in Scouting because they would have to promise to “love God”. Yet this is not seen as discriminatory. Would you ask a Jewish person to promise to “love Jesus” in order to belong to an otherwise public group? Of course not, that would be discrimination. Christians say that the bible is proof of God’s existence. It is no more proves it than it disproves it. It is simply an account or interpretation by several people. Just as several “sightings” of a UFO does not necessarily prove their existence. “Take no intellectual action”? Well how much thought to many theists give it? Most simply believe what their parents taught them to believe, without question. If a person has examined their beliefs and continues to do so, and is not afraid to challenge and question it, then it is truly their own belief. Otherwise, it is simply “following orders” or doing what gets you accepted by those around you. I saw this first hand. I saw people who would belong to any church simply because they need to belong to something. Those I know who are religious (and most are), challenge me by saying, “Well would you rather live your whole life believing, and in the end find out you are wrong, or your whole life not believing and take the chance that you are wrong and end up damned for all eternity?” And I usually think to myself, “If I am right and God does not exist and there is no heaven, then when I die, I won’t even know that I’m right. If I am wrong and He does exist as the being He is described to be, then He created me as I am, a non-believer, and so He would forgive me.” I read an article somewhere that described atheists as “rebellious children who refuse to be governed by a higher power, as in “you’re not the boss of me”. My response to that is that this is a very good analogy. But all children need to grow up eventually and at some point, govern themselves and develop self-discipline. How many adults don’t make a single decision without consulting with their parents? Right or wrong, we usually end up just fine on our own. I know I am.

  10. This goes out to everyone who commented here. I just had to throw in my two cents.

    I ended up here in search of a definition of “atheist”, because I wanted to enter my “religion” on my facebook profile to accurately descibe myself. The way I see things, god(s) and/or religion as a whole is a farce. So I initially did not enter anything in the “religious beliefs” category. But when I thought about it, I realized that if I belonged to any group, based on my vast perspectives, I’d probably be an atheist. And I was right.

    JANE, you’re an idiot. But your uncunning attempt at condescension with the idea that atheists are like rebellious children makes a lot of sense to me. I have always (as far back as I can remember) challenged anyone; adults, authority figures, and ignoramus robots alike; who attempted to “enlighten” me with what they believed I should know. No one has the answers to anything. So how could anyone know what’s best for you? Why should you believe what anyone tells you, least of all fellow idiots? We all make our own decisions. Take responsibility. Accept it.

    KAZZ..SPYRAL…YOU are gods!!! KAZZ…”The world was rolled up by a giant celestial dung beetle.” Thank you for just made my year!

    BOB EVANS..uh, nevermind. not worth the 30 seconds I’ll waste typing something clever.

    MIKE TROTTER…trot away on your unicorn..the truth awaits you..moron.

    CATHERINE…now tell us how you REALLY feel! Right on!! I’m with ya..that’s all I have to say.

    Proud to be an atheist!

  11. I love this site and the lively conversations! A lot of the world criticizes and judges us for what we believe, but here, we can validate each other! Elaine, I think you have the right idea! Proud to be an atheist too! Just wish we could get this kind of validation in the world at large, but in the end, we don’t really need it. Keep thinking and “taking intellectual action” and challenging what the world believes about us! Claim your beliefs with pride!

  12. PS, can anyone tell me what the hell Khoran Fanatic is babbling about and why he would care to post that on an atheist site? Does he think we will all suddenly see “the error of our ways”? I’d give it some real thought if I knew what the hell he meant!

  13. Thanks for the kind words, elaine and Catherine! I think I can explain Khoran Fanatic’s post to you and all of the other confused people out there.

    In the game world of Warhammer 40k, there is a god of anger, violence and hate called “Khorne”. His followers use “Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!” as a battle cry.

    I’m pretty sure Khoran Fanatic generally agrees with us and he was just making fun of real religious fanatics. :)

  14. Good to know he agrees with us! I wasn’t sure what he meant,
    but then I’m not a gamer! It sounded to me like he really was a
    fanatic and trying to convert people! And I hate it when
    some religious person tries to convince me that I’m wrong and
    that I should repent and see the light and believe what they do!
    So, I really want to offer my apologies to him if I misunderstood
    and got defensive. Not my intention to offend in any way! Keep
    posting, folks! I love reading your comments and adding my own!

  15. Just wondered if I could get some opinions on this, as I am curious and I might find the responses very interesting! How many of you atheists out there have friends that are deeply religious? Do you think it is possible for a friendship to work between two people who have fundamentally different beliefs, and how do you manage the relationship so that it does? Although I’d be intersted to know about this too, I am not so much talking about a romantic relationship or casual acquaintance as I am about a quality friendship. Opinions? Stories? Theories? Let’s hear ‘em!

  16. I have tended to attract people with similar views on religion, but a lot of my family is still religious (Christian) and I still get along with them fine.

    I do have other friends who have more “mystical” or pagan beliefs (a Wiccan for example), and it doesn’t seem to be a barrier in these cases. I think it has a lot to do with these people being used to living among people who are very openly religious. Compared to a preacher telling you that you’re an evil sinner on a path straight to Hell, someone saying “I don’t believe in gods” doesn’t seem so bad. Plus they don’t believe that all unbelievers are dangerous sinners who might drag them down to Hell.

    It probably also helps that they don’t preach at me or support the passage of crazy religious laws, and I don’t beat up on their beliefs without provocation. I guess if you want to be friends and you can’t both handle talking calmly and openly about such strongly held beliefs without hurting each other, then it’s probably better to leave other people’s religious beliefs alone unless they want to talk about them or they’re doing something stupid which is motivated by those beliefs.

    None of my closest friends go past agnostic, but I don’t see any reason that I couldn’t have closer friendships with religious people (if they could stomach what I do here), it just seems that the people I have the most interests in common with happen to be atheists or agnostics.

    I’ve heard a lot of stories of people who have lost their faith and maintained friendships, or even built friendships with religious people later, but there are also many people who have lost some or all of their friends over it.

    It depends on the individuals involved, and on their particular religious beliefs.

    For example, someone who leaves Scientology and criticizes it is almost guaranteed to lose all of their Scientologist friends because the “church” has a “disconnection” policy which forces their members to cut off dissenters, even their own family.

    There are also people who think that religion is a very personal thing and they won’t try to force their beliefs on anyone else, so they are generally able to be friends with anyone they want, and there is a whole spectrum in between.

    Basically I would say that if you meet someone you would like to befriend, try to do it regardless of their religious beliefs. If it works out, great! If not, then you haven’t lost anything, as long as you don’t put an inordinate amount of effort into it when it’s obviously not working.

    I know the forum is not very active right now, but we do still keep an eye on it so you may want to join the forum and post questions like this in there. You’ll probably get more responses than you will here. It’s just an easier place to hold longer discussions. :)

  17. I think it depends on whether the two people are willing to defend these specific beliefs “to the death”. :)

    I’m also a vegetarian, a belief that to me is just as if not more important than atheism, but I don’t rule out non-vegetarians as friends. I have many more atheist and agnostic friends than I have vegetarian friends. I don’t feel a need to communicate my stance on things if they aren’t topical. In my daily life I don’t encounter situations where either belief comes up very much so it might be easy for me to think that atheists and theists can be friends.

    I respect others who hold beliefs that are different from mine. My issue is whether or not they will do the same for me. I will support someone who has faith, but I will not support them if they are doing shitty things “because of” their faith – such as gay-bashing, hell-preaching and fear-mongering.

    So while I welcome friends from all walks of life, I’m not willing to put up with dicks and douchebags, atheist or not.

  18. That’s a good point, Spyral. I’m a vegetarian too, but when I find out that one of my friends is it’s more of an added bonus than a requirement to be my friend.

    I’m not as vocal about it as I am about atheism though, and most people don’t hold eating meat to be an absolute requirement for everyone in the world (which they often do with their religion), so it’s rarely an issue.

    I would hope though, if I can deal with most of my friends eating meat, my friends can put up with me not believing in gods even if they do. For some people though, certain issues are just non-negotiable.

  19. Hey, thanks for the feedback guys! I have a very dear friend, and she is deeply religious, her whole family is, and I obviously am not. We get along famously simply because we respect each other and our individual beliefs. I just found it pleasantly curious how two people with such differing beliefs wound up as such close friends. In part, it’s because we don’t get into heavy philosophical arguements over religion or the lack of it, because in the end it wouldn’t matter. We don’t have a need to convince the other that one view is more “right” than the other; our beliefs are our own and are not affected by the other’s level of approval. So I think you are right. I could not possibly be friends with someone who is so religious they feel a need to mention it every other sentence! If my friend wants to pray for me because she believes it may help, let her. Just don’t ask me to pray along. Now if a stranger says to me “I’ll pray for you”, I would say don’t bother! That stranger isn’t doing it because they earnestly want to help me (in most cases). It usually comes off condescending. As in “OH, you’re an atheist? I’ll pray for you!” If I’m over at my friend’s house for dinner and they want to say grace, I bow my head out of respect for their beliefs. If they are at my house and we don’t say grace, they know they can say a quick grace in their heads if they choose, but they would never insist on everyone saying grace out loud. It all boils down to respect. I can respect a person’s beliefs if they don’t try to force it on me or shove it in my face all the time. I did have a friend (and a couple of cousins!)who couldn’t seem to go two minutes without mentioning religion, God etc. It wasn’t just a part of her life, it was all she was about! There was nothing else to her! I couldn’t take it, and I got fed up with her assumption that everybody felt just as she did!

    I guess it’s a lot like two people who don’t speak the same language. If you understand the language, and respect the culture and beliefs that come with it, you’ve got yourself a friend. Weird as it sounds, I often speak to my friend in terms she would understand; not because I share the belief, but because I know the language is familiar to her and comforts her. Phrases like “When God closes a door, He opens a window”. This is something I will say to her when she’s going through a hard time. I could say “When a door closes, a window opens” but that wouldn’t be as comforting for her to hear. I speak to her in her own language, even if I don’t speak it very well. If she ever suffered a loss, I would have no problem in asking her “Do you believe this person is in Heaven now? Then you know they are ok”. It’s what she would need to hear. It’s the same as a vegetarian’s ability to serve meat. You don’t have to eat it yourself in order to be able to serve it to a friend you know will enjoy it.

    I think that there would be a lot less conflict in the world if more people and groups of people could learn to hold true to their own beliefs while still respecting the fact that not everybody shares them and not everybody HAS to! I agree with Spyral in that, if someone is gay-bashing etc in the name of religion, then I can’t respect that. Religion is supposed to be a positive influence in someone’s life, not a sheild for hatred and judgement of others. I can’t respect someone who is not respecting others. I guess that’s the long and short of it. And since that’s the basis of any quality friendship, I guess that’s what makes it work. Thanks guys!

    PS directions to get on the forum, please?

  20. Well this is my first time on this website and I am atheist and I’m only 17 but know more about this topic then most people. I only have one problem when people find out I’m atheist though I’m very open about it. It just ticks me off when religious people say there sorry I’m not going to be saved. Saved!! I just say back calmly u don’t here me saying sorry for your religious beleif do u? Then they say why would u say that or whts your reason behind it, and I simpely say I don’t say sorry for u not being able to see the truth and no matter wht people say u don’t pick up or want to listen and they some say we are close minded people when they don’t listen to wht I say lol.

  21. I total agree i am atheist but i am only 13. And i hate how people judge you just cues your religion.

  22. When there is undoubtable proof of a god or gods then maybe myself and others wouldn’t take an atheist standpoint. With lack of proof comes lack of belief.

  23. Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but a realtionship with Jesus Christ is that and more. Infact me and many christians claim to have the Holy Spirit and i tell you the the Holy Spirit is both awesome and is the peace that everybody is looking for even thought they dont know, believe, or want to believe that Jesus is the answer. People think that Jesus will tie them down too much and in a certain sence he will but i can tell you that Jesus is the ultimate freedom. You have too be saved by him and to do that you must repent of your sins and ask him to come in to your life and also confess his name. After that continue to live with him. It take more than the commitment of church. In fact church cant save you but living daily with Jesus will give you life,peace,security, and a new spirit. You will still have hardships and the bible says that the world will hate you so u must chose a side. Chose God or chose people.

  24. David said, “Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but a realtionship with Jesus Christ is that and more.

    Any relationship with a mythological figure that brings with it an adherence to the religious doctrines that surround that mythology is religion by definition; therefore what thou just said is: “Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but [my religion] is that and more.” This is hardly convincing to anyone and a well tread, dishonest propaganda meme.

    If thou want to be convincing, thou should avoid insincere canards such as the above.



  27. DR.B.R.AGRAWAL, could you please refrain from yelling (typing in caps)?

    As for your points I’m having a hard time understanding what your trying to say. Perhaps you should have someone look over you work before you post it next time.

  28. Hey EndGame, I think I’ve talked with you before in person. You where talking about creationism and evolution, and kept saying how the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn’t contradict evolution. How can information be created at all when the universe is getting more disordered? Such a process would violate the 2nd law, which states that things can only become more disordered over time. So how can information (order) form naturally when only chaos (disorder) comes about naturally? You seemed really smart when you where talking but how can you over look something which seems so obvious?

  29. i think all scientist are athests because there always saying we where crated by the big bang theory,evolution,and donuts.I see no reason to argue because i am a fellow athests myself i have been an athests for three years now and i see it as a religeon because its not illegal to have your own religeon and many people do not believe in any god/gods and we should be given a chance to have our own religeon so who ever says its not then ok i still believe it is

  30. Well there are religions out there which are atheistic, such as many variants of Humanism, and some variants of Taoism and Buddhism among others. However atheism it self is not a religion as there is no defining doctrine or agreement on beliefs other then the very general non-belief in deities.

    For instance I’m very certain that no currently religion which references a god is correct, and hence I don’t believe in one. However the possibility for a god still remains, as such I will not say I fully discount the idea of a god. Not all atheist would agree with this.

  31. @Madmax,

    Uh, I’ve talked with several people about this very argument so you’d have to elaborate a bit more on who you actually are. Anyway on to your argument:

    You understanding of the 2nd law is just, wrong. I’m sorry but very few modern physics texts and people will equate PHYSICAL entropy with disorder. It’s an old idea which doesn’t fit with a modern understanding of entropy, namely that of multiplicity. Ok, so the 2nd law comes from statistical mechanics and the idea is that any large collection of objects which can have multiple states is likely to be found in the state with the highest multiplicity. Most systems start out in systems with low multiplicity and gradually move to states of higher multiplicity. It’s purely probability and mechanics. Now sometimes the state of high multiplicity might be disordered, other times it might be highly ordered. It’s all variable.

    Now that was physical entropy, informational entropy is a wholly different concept that simply uses a similar looking equation. The amount of entropy for an informational object is proportional to the number of symbols with in it, or the complexity of the object. The higher the complexity of the informational packet the more entropy it has, but the higher the complexity the higher the informational content. So we have two ways to increase the amount of information with in a packet and both increase entropy. So if we apply the 2nd law to information (which is very hard to prove for any system other then atomic ones) then as time goes on information can only increase as information content is directly and positively correlated with the amount of entropy which it self can only increase.

    So in final response to your question I haven’t over looked something so simple, in fact I’ve considered it very in depth and came to one conclusion the argument of decreasing information is completely bogus and ANY one who works in the field of Physics or Informational theory or Statistical Mechanics or any of a number of scientific disciplines should know this. If they don’t then I question there skill sets and/or there integrity.

    If you would like equations I can try and show this mathematically but on a forum it’s rather difficult. Perhaps if you found me in person?

  32. So your saying that almost every scientist is wrong when they talk about entropy as disorder? Isn’t that a little arrogant? I’ve never heard anyone say anything about multiplicity when talking about thermodynamics, and I’ve read allot on this subject believe me. I mean how can this multiplicity get rid of disorder? No matter how much you mix up a set of letters it’s almost never going to come out to be a sentence. Maybe you should go back and read some of your ‘text books’ EndGame.

  33. Only one of those definitions mentions multiplicity the others all call entropy disorder and randomness. Thanks for making my point for me.

  34. @Madmax

    This does nothing to assist thy point, in fact it undermines it.

    EndGameOmega approached thee as if thou bear a legitimate interest in the study of this subject; but having stated that thou’ve managed to explore nothing of Statistical Thermodynamics and instead fall into a fallacy of equivocation with an oversimplified definition of Entropy does not help thy credibility.

    Boltzmann’s work has been with us since 1877. It stretches the imagination that thou’ve managed to read “a lot” on this subject but somehow display such a profound ignorance.

    Equivocating the layman meaning of “disorder” to its usage in Thermodynamics is transparent poor form and suggests to me and others that thou hast no interest in actually studying or discussing this subject honestly.

    This behavior is a waste of everyone’s time and it generates frustration and animosity. Please be a better person.

    I would love to see someone have an eloquent, intricate conversation with EndGameOmega about Thermodynamics and how it relates to the micro- and macro-states of our Universe, but playing games with fallacies will never see that happen.

  35. I was brought up going to Sunday School in Britain and at the age of about 18 years old decided for myself that everything I had been told was not true. I am now 54 years old and still believe that. My point is that you don’t have to believe in religion if you don’t believe it! It is accompanied by guilt (RC) or a culture, especially in America where you are weird if you don’t. I still don’t. I have never looked for a site like this before. You don’t have to be intellectual either – some people who are aetheists believe they are better than anyone else. like superiority makes you the expert. Not so. Believe what you believe.

  36. @Maxmax Insofar, EndGameOmega has asked thee, and others, who want a sincere conversation to move this to the forum. Perhaps in that process, thou can also study the subject well enough to recognise Thermodynamics defenitions that have been in majority use for over 130 years. Until then, few will be surprised that nobody thinks there’s any reason for EndGameOmega to post a rebuttal.

  37. Hi All,
    I really enjoyed reading the site, though the thermodynamics talk was a bit above me. It is nice to connect with other athiests – though it does tend to be that most of my friends are also athiests. I am not quite sure why many religious people are threatened by athiesm – likely because deep down they have their own questions. To the question who made the universe – I often reply who made God? Ofcourse, people get defensive on that one “he just always was”. Sure, that makes more sense then the big bang theory!
    I also love the idea that athiest are “bad people”. All the athiests I know are highly educated people, who work hard for their community. Imagine doing good things just because it is in your heart as opposed to trying to secure a place in heaven. Yes, we must be bad.

  38. I am a morman I do beleve in God and Jesus Christ. I have a friend who says he is a athiest I just wanted to find out what he beleves in becouse he cant explain it well. I feel that he is just using it to justify his actions. he really fits into the rebel catagory. your info helped answer my questions. as for my opinion, my religon teaches that we have what is called free agency or the freedom to choose and i respect your decisions i will not look down on you or judge you. After all it is your decision not mine. It is not very christ like to say that you are stupid as some have P.S if you are doing good to try to secure a place in heaven instead of doing for the love of christ it wont help anyway

  39. Blasphemy. Just because you cant see something means its not their??? because you simply cant prove it??? well were you around during this supposedly big bang? i think not. So therfor that never happend rite??. God had the flood to get rid of you idiots, he said next time humanity will destroy itself. Look around thats exactly what is happening.

  40. The continuing expansion of the universe from an initial point of extreme energy and density (the big bang) is something that we can still test for and detect the effects of. God is not.

    The initial stages of the big bang may be long over, but we still see the expansion of the universe, we can still detect faint echos of that initial expansion in background radiation all around us (you can even see it in the static on a TV that has nothing tuned in), and we find more and more predictions based on this theory borne out in new discoveries.

    We see all of this evidence from a long passed event, but for a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god like the one you’re supporting, we see no evidence. Even though this god is supposed to be everywhere at all times, I see absolutely no evidence for it.

    Sure there are natural phenomena (which have natural explanations), but we have no reason to attribute them to any god, let alone yours.

    If you are open minded and intelligent and if you’re willing to spend the time and effort to learn about it, things like the big bang and evolution can be pretty well proven to you. I have spent (and continue to spend) considerable time and energy looking for evidence of any gods though, and I have yet to find a shred of it.

    If you don’t have any evidence for your god beyond the Bible (which is extremely weak evidence), then perhaps you should try exploring the libraries full of books detailing the natural explanations we have for the world. If you want to know the truth about how things are and why, that is where you’ll find it.

  41. lets recab shall we….a random explosion created the universe…. that is a theory yeah you can believe it but dont expect to believe it without getting laughed at. anyways.. you choose to believe in the big bang theory because of the proof however the definition of theory is an opnioun. And their is just as much prove of Gods exsistance have you ever even tried searching for answers??? obviously not. Have you ever heard of Nostradomus? (ps. the Bible is writen documents from Jesus Christs time, In modern words. Thus your full of nonsence and speaking of things that you dont know about.) Honestly im not too sure about Jesus myself but i highly doubt the big bang theory since after all it is just a theory. :) i respect your thoughts even though your full of….(IT) Oh yea and you say we still have the expansion of the universe correct me if im wrong but didnt the big bang happen in space? who created space then? I just want to have reason in believing an imaginary elposion THEORY rather than documents that actually do date back to his time. thnx

  42. Well…what if a giant evil headcrab zombie created everything and evolution is just a zombies kid gone wrong,it looked like a human and here we are. lets leave it at that and let people think this guy or an explosion created everything..besides isnt it a wee to late to do anything about Jesus now?? I mean hes dead now. And we are here and we sould just spend our time worrying about other things like…unicorns attacking mankind. Wich will happen in some peoles minds. Just like giant “gods” creating us. but how did we get here though like say their was an explosion…what made us?? because id feel better if im not an evolved form of toad (or zombie)

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