Atheism
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Side 1: Atheism - Definition
a-the-ism
[ey-thee-iz-uhm]
a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
That is the entire meaning of atheism.
Atheism is not a religion, it is not a belief system.
Atheism is nothing sinister, and nothing to fear.
When it comes to Zeus, we are all atheists.
Side 2: But aren’t atheists bad people?
But aren’t atheists bad people?
Not any more than religious people are. Many people use "holy books" as moral guides, but as much as Christians want us to believe that the Bible is the world’s best guide to morality, it is clearly not.
We are actually programmed with a moral code by our genes and by the societies we live in. Adherence to the Bible is not an indicator of increased morality. In fact the US, the most religious developed country in the world, is far from being the most moral. For example, it has a murder rate over 10 times that of largely atheist Japan, and 2-10 times that of irreligious countries in Europe, with 8 of the 10 most murderous states in the US being in the more religious south, which also boasts the highest divorce rates.
Texas, one of the most religious states in the nation, has the largest percentage of its population in prison, despite having the highest execution rate. Higher than the next 6 states combined. The US, just 5% of the world’s population, has 25% of all prisoners. It has high rates of unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease, partly caused by religiously based "abstinence only" education.
Is this what we should expect from the last bastion of widespread fundimentalist Christianity in the developed world?
About:
So far this has been one of our most popular tracts. Atheists and even many agnostics like it because it delivers one of our most important messages: Religious people do not have a monopoly on morality. We non-believers are as likely as anyone to be good people.
The content is also very quickly clear to people taking it, and although some will immediately drop it when they read the word "atheism", more reasonable people will usually read at least the front and hopefully see the truth about us if they didn’t already know.
January 1st, 2009 at 9:51 pm
Yes, atheism is a belief system..as a matter of fact it takes more to believe that there is nothing out there than to believe in Jesus Christ. I don’t think atheist are bad people. Just mislead and blind. They don’t want to be beholden to a higher power. A lot like little children who rebel against their parents. “I want what I want when I want it” and “You are not my boss, I can do what I want when I want.” Just a couple of things I have heard from atheist…
January 2nd, 2009 at 1:32 am
Really? I must be missing out then. Can you give me a list of the standard atheist doctrine? Is there maybe a web site or book that I can get it from? It would certainly be something that our readers would be interested in learning about.
I’m not quite sure who has the authority to create atheist dogma though, given the fact that it is not an organized group and doesn’t have any undisputed leaders.
Even the atheistic authors I read and respect have their fair share of atheist critics who would not recognize them as anything special.
If there is some kind of Atheist Pope out there handing down un-divinely inspired atheist dogma though, please point us to that person.
As for atheists being like little children who rebel against their parents, I can see the analogy, but it assumes that the Christian God is real.
To me it seems more like someone I don’t even know telling me that I have not only the father that I know, but a second father who I’ve never met, and they have no evidence to show me that he’s real.
They still claim that he has long lists of things that I am required to do or not to do, and if I disobey him in any way, despite his unmatched love for me he will use his infinite magical powers to punish me in the most horrible ways imaginable. Forever.
Since it is nearly impossible to obey every one of his rules for every second of my entire life, and he refuses to forgive me for any sane reason, I need another way out of this eternal torture.
The only way I can get out of it is to believe that I also have a much older half brother, who I’ve also never seen and whose magical powers there is also no evidence of, and that my second father magically impregnated a young girl with my magical brother.
He did this just so that my brother could grow up, perform some magic and then be murdered as a blood sacrifice to appease my magical father since the only other thing that he would accept is me and every other person in the world being tortured for eternity.
I would hope that you could understand my reluctance to believe in such a thing.
Theists on the other hand seem to me to be like children who persist in their belief that Santa Claus is real when all evidence is to the contrary.
You have been told the truth about Santa, his elves and Christmas, but you persist in not only claiming that they are all real, but that I am “mislead and blind” for not believing.
January 2nd, 2009 at 9:37 am
Jane:
Does it take more effort to believe in Jesus than it does to believe in Santa, Zeus or Isis? I can sort of understand why one would think it’s easier to believe that god X exists than to disbelieve - it requires absolutely no thought at all. You can do this with just about everything: ghosts, alien abductions, fairies. But why exactly is it easier to believe in Christianity? Probably because in the Western world it’s the predominant religion. Wow, what a coincidence!
I’m glad you don’t think atheists are bad people. I don’t think Christians are bad people. I don’t think that most are ignorant and intolerant, although that’s the kind of attitude I hear from some Christians.
I am beholden to higher powers: government, society and humanity as a whole. I am a good citizen, family member and employee. So I reject your argument, although I do think that it can be applied to some atheists, as many of them are young and rebellious.
January 12th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
ATHEIST HOLY DAY
In God We Trust.
I like this judge!
FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY : In Florida , an atheist created a case against the Easter & ; Passover holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians, Jews & observances of their holy days. The argument was it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized day.
The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, “Case dismissed.”
The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, “Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter & others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur & Hanukkah. Yet my client & all other atheists have no such holidays.”
The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, “But you do. Counsel, your client is woefully ignorant.” The lawyer said, “Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists.”
The judge said, “The calendar says April 1st is ‘April Fool’s Day.’ Psalm 14:1 states ‘The fool says in his heart, there is no God.’ Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned.”
January 12th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Just so no one is confused, Paul’s message is a joke (details at snopes.com), and in my opinion a pretty tired one. Maybe that’s just because I hear it every couple of weeks from one preacher or another.
If it were true though, I believe that this obviously biased judge would be in danger of losing his job for failure to recuse himself from a case in which he was so clearly unable or unwilling to do his job, which is to impartially interpret the law, and to rule based on that interpretation rather than his own personal beliefs.
As an off-color joke, my main criticism is that it’s not very funny. Since some people spread it as a true story rather than a joke though, and since even more people fail to realize that it’s a joke, I don’t really like it.
Probably the most disturbing thing is that so many people would not be surprised by this kind of behavior from a judge, and that some of them even support it and think that there should be more judges like this.
I have also been informed by a friend that this message has been spammed on multiple posts on his site which has nothing to do with religion. If the message is re-posted in other places on this site then the redundant copies will be removed so we don’t encourage spammers.
January 13th, 2009 at 6:56 pm
explain then please how the world was made
January 17th, 2009 at 9:43 am
Greetings, fellow non theists! Just stopped in to wish you well….
January 17th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Atheist lack belief in God. In other words, Atheist have no position, take no intellectual action, have no belief or unbelief on the matter concerning God. To Atheist it’s a non-issue. Though this may sound sensible to some, the problem is that once your introduced to an idea you can’t stay neutral about it. You invariably make a judgment about an idea once it has been introduced to you. You can brush it off as ridiculous, ponder its possibility, accept it, reject it, or do something in between. But, you can’t return to a lack of belief position if lack of belief is defined as a non-intellectual commitment or non-action concerning it. Though I admit that an atheist can claim he lacks belief even after being exposed to an idea and contemplating its rationality, I still assert that a position of some sort is required. This is why the lack of belief defense of atheists isn’t logical. It ignores the reality that people categorize concepts anywhere in the range of total acceptance to total rejection. It’s our nature to do this. We don’t do nothing with information.
In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see, if they say they have no position, by saying they lack belief, then their position is not open to attack and examination and they can quietly remain atheists.
The problem for atheists, however, is that atheism is coming under more serious attack by Christians and others who recognize its problems and are exposing them. Without a doubt there are far more people in the world who believe in God (or a god) than don’t and more and more Christians are tackling atheism as an untenable position. The majority belief doesn’t make it right, but the increase of examination of atheism has made it more difficult for atheists to defend their position. This also explains why atheists seem to becoming more aggressive in their attacks on theism in its different forms. There’s an intellectual battle being waged and both defensive and offensive measures are being taken on both sides. In the end, the truth will be known and atheism will become extinct.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:13 am
Bob Evans: The world was rolled up by a giant celestial dung beetle. He created everything here, which is why we have so many species of beetles!
Beetles comprise 40% of all described insect species (about 350,000 of them so far), and new ones are being discovered all the time. It is estimated that there are as many as 5 to 8 million different species of beetles in the world.
If you’re serious though, the short answer is that it was formed by a series of natural events based on the basic laws of the universe such as gravity and momentum.
Here is a long (and probably boring) video that will give you part of the answer, but if you want to know more there are plenty of books, videos and other resources that you can look through to find the answers. It is a complicated issue though, so if you want to fully understand it, don’t expect to do it in a day.
January 18th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Mike Trotter: The reason that calling atheism a “lack of belief” is most proper is because not everyone who does not believe in gods has even considered the concept, and many who have thought about it are unsure.
The only way to be a theist is to actively believe in a god or gods, and anyone who is not a theist is either agnostic (saying that we can’t know one way or the other) or an atheist, which is the default position. Just like not believing in faeries, if we had a word for that, would be the default position.
If you don’t believe in something, whether or not you’ve heard of it, you have a lack of belief in it.
In my opinion, lack of belief is really an attempt by atheists to avoid facing and defending the problems in their atheistic position. You see, if they say they have no position, by saying they lack belief, then their position is not open to attack and examination and they can quietly remain atheists.
Does it seem like we’re trying to “quietly remain atheists” to you? I would like for people to be able to disbelieve in peace without having to deal with preachy theists if that’s what they want to do, but I’m not hiding. If you have a way to prove any gods are real or that the Bible is a reliable source of history and our best moral guide, then bring it on. I can almost guarantee you won’t be able to, but if you can then you’ll rack up a bunch of converts!
In the end, the truth will be known and atheism will become extinct.
I think you’re right. Once everyone realizes that there are no gods, there will be no more need to use the word atheism.
January 29th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I just wanted to respond to some of the things I’ve read here and maybe add my own thoughts. I have to disagree with the statement that atheists “take no intellectual action” or that we don’t have a position at all! I think our position is quite clear and we are as steadfast in that belief as any religion is in theirs. That belief being that there is no God and nothing beyond this life. Agnostics, as I understand it, believe that it is impossible for anyone to either prove or disprove the existence of any God, and that is closer to not taking a position in my opinion. I disagree that we “take no intellectual action”; I have thought all my life about it and have come to my conclusion based on all that thought. I continue to think about it every time someone challenges my beliefs or religion is thrust upon me against my wishes and beliefs. I know how Jewish people feel in a world of Christianity. Everywhere I go, it’s a part of everything. I can’t even enroll my kids in Scouting because they would have to promise to “love God”. Yet this is not seen as discriminatory. Would you ask a Jewish person to promise to “love Jesus” in order to belong to an otherwise public group? Of course not, that would be discrimination. Christians say that the bible is proof of God’s existence. It is no more proves it than it disproves it. It is simply an account or interpretation by several people. Just as several “sightings” of a UFO does not necessarily prove their existence. “Take no intellectual action”? Well how much thought to many theists give it? Most simply believe what their parents taught them to believe, without question. If a person has examined their beliefs and continues to do so, and is not afraid to challenge and question it, then it is truly their own belief. Otherwise, it is simply “following orders” or doing what gets you accepted by those around you. I saw this first hand. I saw people who would belong to any church simply because they need to belong to something. Those I know who are religious (and most are), challenge me by saying, “Well would you rather live your whole life believing, and in the end find out you are wrong, or your whole life not believing and take the chance that you are wrong and end up damned for all eternity?” And I usually think to myself, “If I am right and God does not exist and there is no heaven, then when I die, I won’t even know that I’m right. If I am wrong and He does exist as the being He is described to be, then He created me as I am, a non-believer, and so He would forgive me.” I read an article somewhere that described atheists as “rebellious children who refuse to be governed by a higher power, as in “you’re not the boss of me”. My response to that is that this is a very good analogy. But all children need to grow up eventually and at some point, govern themselves and develop self-discipline. How many adults don’t make a single decision without consulting with their parents? Right or wrong, we usually end up just fine on our own. I know I am.
February 12th, 2009 at 12:16 am
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
February 18th, 2009 at 2:20 am
This goes out to everyone who commented here. I just had to throw in my two cents.
I ended up here in search of a definition of “atheist”, because I wanted to enter my “religion” on my facebook profile to accurately descibe myself. The way I see things, god(s) and/or religion as a whole is a farce. So I initially did not enter anything in the “religious beliefs” category. But when I thought about it, I realized that if I belonged to any group, based on my vast perspectives, I’d probably be an atheist. And I was right.
JANE, you’re an idiot. But your uncunning attempt at condescension with the idea that atheists are like rebellious children makes a lot of sense to me. I have always (as far back as I can remember) challenged anyone; adults, authority figures, and ignoramus robots alike; who attempted to “enlighten” me with what they believed I should know. No one has the answers to anything. So how could anyone know what’s best for you? Why should you believe what anyone tells you, least of all fellow idiots? We all make our own decisions. Take responsibility. Accept it.
KAZZ..SPYRAL…YOU are gods!!! KAZZ…”The world was rolled up by a giant celestial dung beetle.” Thank you for this..you just made my year!
BOB EVANS..uh, nevermind. not worth the 30 seconds I’ll waste typing something clever.
MIKE TROTTER…trot away on your unicorn..the truth awaits you..moron.
CATHERINE…now tell us how you REALLY feel! Right on!! I’m with ya..that’s all I have to say.
Proud to be an atheist!
February 18th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
I love this site and the lively conversations! A lot of the world criticizes and judges us for what we believe, but here, we can validate each other! Elaine, I think you have the right idea! Proud to be an atheist too! Just wish we could get this kind of validation in the world at large, but in the end, we don’t really need it. Keep thinking and “taking intellectual action” and challenging what the world believes about us! Claim your beliefs with pride!
February 18th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
PS, can anyone tell me what the hell Khoran Fanatic is babbling about and why he would care to post that on an atheist site? Does he think we will all suddenly see “the error of our ways”? I’d give it some real thought if I knew what the hell he meant!
February 19th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Thanks for the kind words, elaine and Catherine! I think I can explain Khoran Fanatic’s post to you and all of the other confused people out there.
In the game world of Warhammer 40k, there is a god of anger, violence and hate called “Khorne”. His followers use “Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!” as a battle cry.
I’m pretty sure Khoran Fanatic generally agrees with us and he was just making fun of real religious fanatics.
February 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Good to know he agrees with us! I wasn’t sure what he meant,
but then I’m not a gamer! It sounded to me like he really was a
fanatic and trying to convert people! And I hate it when
some religious person tries to convince me that I’m wrong and
that I should repent and see the light and believe what they do!
So, I really want to offer my apologies to him if I misunderstood
and got defensive. Not my intention to offend in any way! Keep
posting, folks! I love reading your comments and adding my own!
February 24th, 2009 at 12:57 am
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!
February 24th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
Right back atcha!
March 4th, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Just wondered if I could get some opinions on this, as I am curious and I might find the responses very interesting! How many of you atheists out there have friends that are deeply religious? Do you think it is possible for a friendship to work between two people who have fundamentally different beliefs, and how do you manage the relationship so that it does? Although I’d be intersted to know about this too, I am not so much talking about a romantic relationship or casual acquaintance as I am about a quality friendship. Opinions? Stories? Theories? Let’s hear ‘em!
March 4th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
I have tended to attract people with similar views on religion, but a lot of my family is still religious (Christian) and I still get along with them fine.
I do have other friends who have more “mystical” or pagan beliefs (a Wiccan for example), and it doesn’t seem to be a barrier in these cases. I think it has a lot to do with these people being used to living among people who are very openly religious. Compared to a preacher telling you that you’re an evil sinner on a path straight to Hell, someone saying “I don’t believe in gods” doesn’t seem so bad. Plus they don’t believe that all unbelievers are dangerous sinners who might drag them down to Hell.
It probably also helps that they don’t preach at me or support the passage of crazy religious laws, and I don’t beat up on their beliefs without provocation. I guess if you want to be friends and you can’t both handle talking calmly and openly about such strongly held beliefs without hurting each other, then it’s probably better to leave other people’s religious beliefs alone unless they want to talk about them or they’re doing something stupid which is motivated by those beliefs.
None of my closest friends go past agnostic, but I don’t see any reason that I couldn’t have closer friendships with religious people (if they could stomach what I do here), it just seems that the people I have the most interests in common with happen to be atheists or agnostics.
I’ve heard a lot of stories of people who have lost their faith and maintained friendships, or even built friendships with religious people later, but there are also many people who have lost some or all of their friends over it.
It depends on the individuals involved, and on their particular religious beliefs.
For example, someone who leaves Scientology and criticizes it is almost guaranteed to lose all of their Scientologist friends because the “church” has a “disconnection” policy which forces their members to cut off dissenters, even their own family.
There are also people who think that religion is a very personal thing and they won’t try to force their beliefs on anyone else, so they are generally able to be friends with anyone they want, and there is a whole spectrum in between.
Basically I would say that if you meet someone you would like to befriend, try to do it regardless of their religious beliefs. If it works out, great! If not, then you haven’t lost anything, as long as you don’t put an inordinate amount of effort into it when it’s obviously not working.
I know the forum is not very active right now, but we do still keep an eye on it so you may want to join the forum and post questions like this in there. You’ll probably get more responses than you will here. It’s just an easier place to hold longer discussions.
March 4th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
I think it depends on whether the two people are willing to defend these specific beliefs “to the death”.
I’m also a vegetarian, a belief that to me is just as if not more important than atheism, but I don’t rule out non-vegetarians as friends. I have many more atheist and agnostic friends than I have vegetarian friends. I don’t feel a need to communicate my stance on things if they aren’t topical. In my daily life I don’t encounter situations where either belief comes up very much so it might be easy for me to think that atheists and theists can be friends.
I respect others who hold beliefs that are different from mine. My issue is whether or not they will do the same for me. I will support someone who has faith, but I will not support them if they are doing shitty things “because of” their faith - such as gay-bashing, hell-preaching and fear-mongering.
So while I welcome friends from all walks of life, I’m not willing to put up with dicks and douchebags, atheist or not.
March 4th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
That’s a good point, Spyral. I’m a vegetarian too, but when I find out that one of my friends is it’s more of an added bonus than a requirement to be my friend.
I’m not as vocal about it as I am about atheism though, and most people don’t hold eating meat to be an absolute requirement for everyone in the world (which they often do with their religion), so it’s rarely an issue.
I would hope though, if I can deal with most of my friends eating meat, my friends can put up with me not believing in gods even if they do. For some people though, certain issues are just non-negotiable.
March 7th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Hey, thanks for the feedback guys! I have a very dear friend, and she is deeply religious, her whole family is, and I obviously am not. We get along famously simply because we respect each other and our individual beliefs. I just found it pleasantly curious how two people with such differing beliefs wound up as such close friends. In part, it’s because we don’t get into heavy philosophical arguements over religion or the lack of it, because in the end it wouldn’t matter. We don’t have a need to convince the other that one view is more “right” than the other; our beliefs are our own and are not affected by the other’s level of approval. So I think you are right. I could not possibly be friends with someone who is so religious they feel a need to mention it every other sentence! If my friend wants to pray for me because she believes it may help, let her. Just don’t ask me to pray along. Now if a stranger says to me “I’ll pray for you”, I would say don’t bother! That stranger isn’t doing it because they earnestly want to help me (in most cases). It usually comes off condescending. As in “OH, you’re an atheist? I’ll pray for you!” If I’m over at my friend’s house for dinner and they want to say grace, I bow my head out of respect for their beliefs. If they are at my house and we don’t say grace, they know they can say a quick grace in their heads if they choose, but they would never insist on everyone saying grace out loud. It all boils down to respect. I can respect a person’s beliefs if they don’t try to force it on me or shove it in my face all the time. I did have a friend (and a couple of cousins!)who couldn’t seem to go two minutes without mentioning religion, God etc. It wasn’t just a part of her life, it was all she was about! There was nothing else to her! I couldn’t take it, and I got fed up with her assumption that everybody felt just as she did!
I guess it’s a lot like two people who don’t speak the same language. If you understand the language, and respect the culture and beliefs that come with it, you’ve got yourself a friend. Weird as it sounds, I often speak to my friend in terms she would understand; not because I share the belief, but because I know the language is familiar to her and comforts her. Phrases like “When God closes a door, He opens a window”. This is something I will say to her when she’s going through a hard time. I could say “When a door closes, a window opens” but that wouldn’t be as comforting for her to hear. I speak to her in her own language, even if I don’t speak it very well. If she ever suffered a loss, I would have no problem in asking her “Do you believe this person is in Heaven now? Then you know they are ok”. It’s what she would need to hear. It’s the same as a vegetarian’s ability to serve meat. You don’t have to eat it yourself in order to be able to serve it to a friend you know will enjoy it.
I think that there would be a lot less conflict in the world if more people and groups of people could learn to hold true to their own beliefs while still respecting the fact that not everybody shares them and not everybody HAS to! I agree with Spyral in that, if someone is gay-bashing etc in the name of religion, then I can’t respect that. Religion is supposed to be a positive influence in someone’s life, not a sheild for hatred and judgement of others. I can’t respect someone who is not respecting others. I guess that’s the long and short of it. And since that’s the basis of any quality friendship, I guess that’s what makes it work. Thanks guys!
PS directions to get on the forum, please?
March 7th, 2009 at 6:16 am
Never mind, found it! I’ll be having my morning coffee now! Duh!
May 22nd, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Well this is my first time on this website and I am atheist and I’m only 17 but know more about this topic then most people. I only have one problem when people find out I’m atheist though I’m very open about it. It just ticks me off when religious people say there sorry I’m not going to be saved. Saved!! I just say back calmly u don’t here me saying sorry for your religious beleif do u? Then they say why would u say that or whts your reason behind it, and I simpely say I don’t say sorry for u not being able to see the truth and no matter wht people say u don’t pick up or want to listen and they some say we are close minded people when they don’t listen to wht I say lol.
July 3rd, 2009 at 8:02 pm
I total agree i am atheist but i am only 13. And i hate how people judge you just cues your religion.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
When there is undoubtable proof of a god or gods then maybe myself and others wouldn’t take an atheist standpoint. With lack of proof comes lack of belief.
July 30th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but a realtionship with Jesus Christ is that and more. Infact me and many christians claim to have the Holy Spirit and i tell you the the Holy Spirit is both awesome and is the peace that everybody is looking for even thought they dont know, believe, or want to believe that Jesus is the answer. People think that Jesus will tie them down too much and in a certain sence he will but i can tell you that Jesus is the ultimate freedom. You have too be saved by him and to do that you must repent of your sins and ask him to come in to your life and also confess his name. After that continue to live with him. It take more than the commitment of church. In fact church cant save you but living daily with Jesus will give you life,peace,security, and a new spirit. You will still have hardships and the bible says that the world will hate you so u must chose a side. Chose God or chose people.
July 31st, 2009 at 1:44 pm
David said, “Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but a realtionship with Jesus Christ is that and more.”
Any relationship with a mythological figure that brings with it an adherence to the religious doctrines that surround that mythology is religion by definition; therefore what thou just said is: “Religion is not the way to peace and happiness but [my religion] is that and more.” This is hardly convincing to anyone and a well tread, dishonest propaganda meme.
If thou want to be convincing, thou should avoid insincere canards such as the above.
September 14th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
ATHEISTS IS NOT BELEIVING ON ANY GOD AND RELIGION WHERE
THERE IS NO RELEGION WITHOUT GOD.
HUMAN BEING WILL TREATED AS RELEGION AND RELATIVES OF
GENES WILL NOT BE ALSO ATHEIST AS SON, DAUGHTER, SON-IN-LAW, BROTHERS, SISTERS,BROTHERS -IN-LAW,FATHER-IN-LAW,MOTHER-IN-LAW BUT THEY WILL REMAIN AS BLOOD RALATIVES FOR LOVE PASSION.
September 14th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
ATHESTS IS NEVER BELEIVE IN GOD WITH RELIGION ALSO.
EVERY RELIGION HAD GOD AND PREYAR.ATHEIST ONLY BELEIVE IN HUMAN BEINGS WITHOUT ANY RELIGION.BUT RELATIVES MAY HAVE ATHEIST OR THEY MAY BECOME ANY RELEGION
IT SHOULD BE MIND TO GENES OF ATHEIST LIKE SON,DAUGTHER,BROTHERS,SISTERS,SON-IN-LAW.BROTHER-IN-LAW.MOTHER-IN-LAW,FATHER-IN-LAW.
ATHEST DOES NOT REQUIRED ANY CERTIFICATE LIKE PASS-PORT BEING ATHEST.IT WILL LIKE NATIONALTY OF THE COUNTRY. IT WILL NOT HAVE ANY RULES AND REGULATION TO
ATHEIST COMMUNITY AS SUCH.
September 16th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
DR.B.R.AGRAWAL, could you please refrain from yelling (typing in caps)?
As for your points I’m having a hard time understanding what your trying to say. Perhaps you should have someone look over you work before you post it next time.
September 17th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Hey EndGame, I think I’ve talked with you before in person. You where talking about creationism and evolution, and kept saying how the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn’t contradict evolution. How can information be created at all when the universe is getting more disordered? Such a process would violate the 2nd law, which states that things can only become more disordered over time. So how can information (order) form naturally when only chaos (disorder) comes about naturally? You seemed really smart when you where talking but how can you over look something which seems so obvious?
September 18th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
i think all scientist are athests because there always saying we where crated by the big bang theory,evolution,and donuts.I see no reason to argue because i am a fellow athests myself i have been an athests for three years now and i see it as a religeon because its not illegal to have your own religeon and many people do not believe in any god/gods and we should be given a chance to have our own religeon so who ever says its not then ok i still believe it is
September 19th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Well there are religions out there which are atheistic, such as many variants of Humanism, and some variants of Taoism and Buddhism among others. However atheism it self is not a religion as there is no defining doctrine or agreement on beliefs other then the very general non-belief in deities.
For instance I’m very certain that no currently religion which references a god is correct, and hence I don’t believe in one. However the possibility for a god still remains, as such I will not say I fully discount the idea of a god. Not all atheist would agree with this.
September 19th, 2009 at 3:42 am
@Madmax,
Uh, I’ve talked with several people about this very argument so you’d have to elaborate a bit more on who you actually are. Anyway on to your argument:
You understanding of the 2nd law is just, wrong. I’m sorry but very few modern physics texts and people will equate PHYSICAL entropy with disorder. It’s an old idea which doesn’t fit with a modern understanding of entropy, namely that of multiplicity. Ok, so the 2nd law comes from statistical mechanics and the idea is that any large collection of objects which can have multiple states is likely to be found in the state with the highest multiplicity. Most systems start out in systems with low multiplicity and gradually move to states of higher multiplicity. It’s purely probability and mechanics. Now sometimes the state of high multiplicity might be disordered, other times it might be highly ordered. It’s all variable.
Now that was physical entropy, informational entropy is a wholly different concept that simply uses a similar looking equation. The amount of entropy for an informational object is proportional to the number of symbols with in it, or the complexity of the object. The higher the complexity of the informational packet the more entropy it has, but the higher the complexity the higher the informational content. So we have two ways to increase the amount of information with in a packet and both increase entropy. So if we apply the 2nd law to information (which is very hard to prove for any system other then atomic ones) then as time goes on information can only increase as information content is directly and positively correlated with the amount of entropy which it self can only increase.
So in final response to your question I haven’t over looked something so simple, in fact I’ve considered it very in depth and came to one conclusion the argument of decreasing information is completely bogus and ANY one who works in the field of Physics or Informational theory or Statistical Mechanics or any of a number of scientific disciplines should know this. If they don’t then I question there skill sets and/or there integrity.
If you would like equations I can try and show this mathematically but on a forum it’s rather difficult. Perhaps if you found me in person?
September 20th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
So your saying that almost every scientist is wrong when they talk about entropy as disorder? Isn’t that a little arrogant? I’ve never heard anyone say anything about multiplicity when talking about thermodynamics, and I’ve read allot on this subject believe me. I mean how can this multiplicity get rid of disorder? No matter how much you mix up a set of letters it’s almost never going to come out to be a sentence. Maybe you should go back and read some of your ‘text books’ EndGame.
September 21st, 2009 at 9:18 am
@Madmax
I’ve never heard anyone say anything about multiplicity when talking about thermodynamics, and I’ve read allot on this subject believe me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy
See: Standard textbook definitions of Entropy. Time to read a lot more.
September 21st, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Only one of those definitions mentions multiplicity the others all call entropy disorder and randomness. Thanks for making my point for me.
September 22nd, 2009 at 9:20 am
@Madmax
This does nothing to assist thy point, in fact it undermines it.
EndGameOmega approached thee as if thou bear a legitimate interest in the study of this subject; but having stated that thou’ve managed to explore nothing of Statistical Thermodynamics and instead fall into a fallacy of equivocation with an oversimplified definition of Entropy does not help thy credibility.
Boltzmann’s work has been with us since 1877. It stretches the imagination that thou’ve managed to read “a lot” on this subject but somehow display such a profound ignorance.
Equivocating the layman meaning of “disorder” to its usage in Thermodynamics is transparent poor form and suggests to me and others that thou hast no interest in actually studying or discussing this subject honestly.
This behavior is a waste of everyone’s time and it generates frustration and animosity. Please be a better person.
I would love to see someone have an eloquent, intricate conversation with EndGameOmega about Thermodynamics and how it relates to the micro- and macro-states of our Universe, but playing games with fallacies will never see that happen.
October 4th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
So EndGame I’m still waiting for your rebuttal, it’s been over a week.
October 9th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I was brought up going to Sunday School in Britain and at the age of about 18 years old decided for myself that everything I had been told was not true. I am now 54 years old and still believe that. My point is that you don’t have to believe in religion if you don’t believe it! It is accompanied by guilt (RC) or a culture, especially in America where you are weird if you don’t. I still don’t. I have never looked for a site like this before. You don’t have to be intellectual either - some people who are aetheists believe they are better than anyone else. like superiority makes you the expert. Not so. Believe what you believe.
October 9th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
@Maxmax Insofar, EndGameOmega has asked thee, and others, who want a sincere conversation to move this to the forum. Perhaps in that process, thou can also study the subject well enough to recognise Thermodynamics defenitions that have been in majority use for over 130 years. Until then, few will be surprised that nobody thinks there’s any reason for EndGameOmega to post a rebuttal.
October 11th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Hi All,
I really enjoyed reading the site, though the thermodynamics talk was a bit above me. It is nice to connect with other athiests - though it does tend to be that most of my friends are also athiests. I am not quite sure why many religious people are threatened by athiesm - likely because deep down they have their own questions. To the question who made the universe - I often reply who made God? Ofcourse, people get defensive on that one “he just always was”. Sure, that makes more sense then the big bang theory!
I also love the idea that athiest are “bad people”. All the athiests I know are highly educated people, who work hard for their community. Imagine doing good things just because it is in your heart as opposed to trying to secure a place in heaven. Yes, we must be bad.
October 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
I am a morman I do beleve in God and Jesus Christ. I have a friend who says he is a athiest I just wanted to find out what he beleves in becouse he cant explain it well. I feel that he is just using it to justify his actions. he really fits into the rebel catagory. your info helped answer my questions. as for my opinion, my religon teaches that we have what is called free agency or the freedom to choose and i respect your decisions i will not look down on you or judge you. After all it is your decision not mine. It is not very christ like to say that you are stupid as some have P.S if you are doing good to try to secure a place in heaven instead of doing for the love of christ it wont help anyway
October 13th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Blasphemy. Just because you cant see something means its not their??? because you simply cant prove it??? well were you around during this supposedly big bang? i think not. So therfor that never happend rite??. God had the flood to get rid of you idiots, he said next time humanity will destroy itself. Look around thats exactly what is happening.
October 13th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
The continuing expansion of the universe from an initial point of extreme energy and density (the big bang) is something that we can still test for and detect the effects of. God is not.
The initial stages of the big bang may be long over, but we still see the expansion of the universe, we can still detect faint echos of that initial expansion in background radiation all around us (you can even see it in the static on a TV that has nothing tuned in), and we find more and more predictions based on this theory borne out in new discoveries.
We see all of this evidence from a long passed event, but for a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god like the one you’re supporting, we see no evidence. Even though this god is supposed to be everywhere at all times, I see absolutely no evidence for it.
Sure there are natural phenomena (which have natural explanations), but we have no reason to attribute them to any god, let alone yours.
If you are open minded and intelligent and if you’re willing to spend the time and effort to learn about it, things like the big bang and evolution can be pretty well proven to you. I have spent (and continue to spend) considerable time and energy looking for evidence of any gods though, and I have yet to find a shred of it.
If you don’t have any evidence for your god beyond the Bible (which is extremely weak evidence), then perhaps you should try exploring the libraries full of books detailing the natural explanations we have for the world. If you want to know the truth about how things are and why, that is where you’ll find it.
October 14th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
lets recab shall we….a random explosion created the universe…. that is a theory yeah you can believe it but dont expect to believe it without getting laughed at. anyways.. you choose to believe in the big bang theory because of the proof however the definition of theory is an opnioun. And their is just as much prove of Gods exsistance have you ever even tried searching for answers??? obviously not. Have you ever heard of Nostradomus? (ps. the Bible is writen documents from Jesus Christs time, In modern words. Thus your full of nonsence and speaking of things that you dont know about.) Honestly im not too sure about Jesus myself but i highly doubt the big bang theory since after all it is just a theory.
i respect your thoughts even though your full of….(IT) Oh yea and you say we still have the expansion of the universe correct me if im wrong but didnt the big bang happen in space? who created space then? I just want to have reason in believing an imaginary elposion THEORY rather than documents that actually do date back to his time. thnx
October 14th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Well…what if a giant evil headcrab zombie created everything and evolution is just a zombies kid gone wrong,it looked like a human and here we are. lets leave it at that and let people think this guy or an explosion created everything..besides isnt it a wee to late to do anything about Jesus now?? I mean hes dead now. And we are here and we sould just spend our time worrying about other things like…unicorns attacking mankind. Wich will happen in some peoles minds. Just like giant “gods” creating us. but how did we get here though like say their was an explosion…what made us?? because id feel better if im not an evolved form of toad (or zombie)
October 14th, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Uhm ok than Madame Webroot Antivirus i dont mean to yell but..MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!! (i think your onto something with the evil headcrab zombie stuff.) anyways im a mislead person my family is religous and i dont know if i am i want to believe but…i dont know enlighten me in your non beliefs please, amaze me. maybe in words that an average person can relate with please.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Look Max, I haven’t responded for two reasons, first and foremost because I’ve been to busy with work, school and club activities. Secondly I didn’t respond because you haven’t brought up any good counter points. The fact of the matter is that EVERY modern text book I’ve ever read on statistical physics which encompass thermodynamics as a derived sub-discipline list entropy as being defined by the multiplicity of states. That’s what the Omega variable was in Amarest linked article. I have two text in front of me right now (”Thermal Physics”, by Kittle, and “Statistical and Thermal Physics” by Sturge) which list the same definition for entropy.
I know you’ve claimed to have read a lot on the subject but what exactly have you read? What text books are you using? They must be ether very old or of questionable reputability.
October 18th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Atheism’s definition has nothing to do with anything resembling or related in any way to theism, it is not against theism, it is not the denying of the concept of god. Atheism is the absolute belief that there is only one reality, the Physical Reality, the reality build by three fundamental elements: Space, Energy and Information or Physical Laws. Time isn’t a fundamental element of the Reality since it is just the mere distance between two events.
The metaphysical reality stated by Plato 25 centuries ago isn’t what he thought and defined it was as the true and perfect reality and the source of the Physical Reality. Today we deny him the privileged position the Vatican gave to him when the Church had the power to decide what humans must think, say and do, position that western culture has kept for no rational, logical reason since he knew so little that all he could ever known can be stored in a hard disc of an Atari computer of the early 1980s. Mr Plato is a dead cow no more a sacred cow of the philosophy, theology and Christianity.
We are now free from all those sacred cows whose way of thinking have slaved our minds into the so called concept of a supreme entity creator of the universe and stated by Plato as: “the necessary being” to explain the universe. The Universe doesn’t need a creator, god needs one, and we know it: We, are the creator of god and so we can at will vanish, kill, annihilate, destroy whatever it and never again even think about that. IT IS TIME TO DO SO MY FRIENDS TO EXTRICATE, TO FORBID, TO ERADICATE, TO VANISH THAT PERNICIOUS CONCEPT FROM HUMAN MIND.
What we need is an atheism for the masses not a socialism, not a capitalism but an atheism to change the structure of the society we live in into a free society where we can build our future as species. The concept of god is a fundamental enemy of Science, Science and religion can’t exist together because the object of Science is to build a model of the Physical Reality while religion’s object is to subject humans to the model of metaphysical reality priests have invented to slave the human mind. Religions put humans in a fake reality whose ultimate goal is to live in function of a metaphysical reality that only exists in the believers brain.
October 18th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Is there a god? Of course NOT, NO body has ever proved beyond reasonable doubt that there is a god or something similar. The closer prove is the Plato’s who wrote: “god is the necessary being,” as the only option for the Universe to exist. But who has proved that the universe was created to start with? Those that think that to prove that the universe was created is enough to create a creator are out of mind ignoring that there is no need to have a creator of the universe since the same way that there is a creator there is an universe too so, forget about a creator whose creation is a lot harder that just state that the Universe has always existed, as the so called creator would be, and is eternal and infinite. NO body can logically deny this. The religions rely in the assertion that the universe MUST be created because in the priests imagination the universe isn’t a earthy living creature like animals (we are humanimals) or plants that breath, eat, move, reproduce and so on. But this way of thinking is just that, a way of thinking, with no authority to claim posses the absolute true; in their frame of reference they can sort, like magicians in their show, all kind of rabbits out of their hat but not in the real world. To establish that there is a god isn’t as easy as to say that Jesus is the son of god that was raised in flesh and soul to the heavens and the same was for his mother plus a big lot of similar absurdities that only Christians dare to believe because the terror to be send to the hell after death. If you are a Christian you live in fear and terror all your life and no dares to do anything that could put you at risk of eternal condemnation and if you do so the terror is even worse when you are closer to death because your age and illnesses. I have known cowards so called themselves atheists who were laud atheists while were healthy but after the first heat attack they back off from their atheism, what a despicable shame.
October 21st, 2009 at 9:29 pm
something fun to think about…saw it on the history channel. they have found carvings in rocks in South America, China, Europe, North America, all from around the same time period, all resembling aliens, and aliens in flying “sun disks”. At this time, the world was not connected. But maybe aliens put us here, or are watching us. Prometheus, greek god of fire, apparently brought us fire against the will of the gods…maybe he was an alien. Maybe Mary was a virgin, and the aliens abducted and impregnated her, Jesus was half aliens which explains the powers. The burning bush Moses called God, was an alien ship on a mountain. Moses turned grey from radiation. Beyond this, look at the Mayan civillization and their time keeping abilities, and apocalyptic prophecies. Who built the pyramids? Aliens…maybe. They started showing up after WWII a lot more…maybe they saw the atom bombs go off. Also, with the 2012 prophecy coming soon…alien/ufo sightings have been doubling over the last few years. Why else was “heaven” in the sky? hahaha, not to say I believe all of this, because there is no way of knowing. But there are lots of fun things to think about when you no longer believe in God. The funny thing is, a religious person might see this and think its absolutely unreasonable. More unreasonable than a being who created us all…but nobody knows how he was created? If God created the Earth, he created Swine Flu…which means he only wants to kill babies and old people. Science gave us a vaccine for the Swine Flu. If god was here right now, I’d punch him in the face
November 6th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
I’m not an Atheist. I do believe in God, but I find atheistism very interesting and compelling. Now i have something to argue with my christian friends. I will no longer look at a atheist as something odd, but now show respect
November 9th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I cant explain how the world was made, no body can, and also no body can prove God is real, along with mirmaids, unicorns and big foot, because there has been no physical evidence. Only speculation of what people belive!
November 9th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
And what people belive are what they belive, and i dont think people need to try to convert people into what they belive or spread there biast opinon!
November 9th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
And i also know i spelt stuff wrong and if you dont like it tell some one that cares!!!
November 10th, 2009 at 5:14 pm
I see. You might want to calm down a bit Sara. It doesn’t do you or anyone any good when you get upset. Believe me I know from my own experience with this kind of thing.
As for your comments, we can know whit a high degree of certainty how the earth was made and when. All along it’s geological colloum and with in the material of our star system is the evidence we need. By examining it and understanding the physical process they go through we can deduce that the earth was formed some 4.5 billion years ago by a larger collapsing stellar debris field.
As for proving that things are real, that’s kind of the point with out the ability to prove something is real why believe in it? If you can’t prove it’s real and you can’t show evidence of it’s existence then it has no visible effect on the world around us. By choosing to believe in something with no evidence of it’s existences you have to ask your self why this one thing and not others? How can you justifiably believe in leprechauns but not unicorns and still remain logically consistent?
You also say it’s not right to ‘convert’ people, but what if their beliefs are fundamentally harming them, or the world? What if they are causeing suffering because of their beliefs, are we just suppose to stand by and do nothing?
November 19th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
I’ve read with joy the comments here,but I really feelI would add something to this whole 2nd law thing. Whether or not you define entropy in terms of multiplicity or “physical disorder” whatever that means, it’s a moot discussion anyway because the second law applies only in situations where there is no energy being added from outside (a closed system). The universe as a whole is subject to the second law, but there is nothing prohibiting local drops in entropy. In fact, such drops happen all the time. A steam engine is an entropy-dropping device: it converts heat (high entropy) into kinetic energy (low entropy). Now, of course a steam engine with no energy being added won’t work - we wouldn’t expect it to - but as soon as we pour on the energy, it is no longer a closed system, and lo and behold, it works! Entropy dropping locally and the second law is fine with that.
So, in order to use the second law as argument against evolution, you’d have to pretend that there was no energy being added to Earth - in other words, that the Sun didn’t exist. This is a pretty big assumption, and if the sun really didn’t exist, I would agree with you that evolution was a pretty tall order. But it does exist, so the Earth is not a closed system, and the second law can not be applied here.
November 25th, 2009 at 12:45 am
I stumbled upon this chain of posts and am very intrigued by most of the intelligent discussions. My question is: I am a realtor working in a very warm, friendly office with about 80% (mostly born-again) Christians and a few quiet non-religious types. I am so tired of hearing how every time I am having a tough time and then something good happens someone comments “I’ve been praying for you”. Like their personal realtionship with JC caused the universe to line up in my favor,not because I worked hard to make a bad situation turn out well. I am having a hard time not coming out of the atheistic/agnostic closet as it were but also don’t want to jeapordize my business career.
December 31st, 2009 at 7:43 am
I want to bear you my testimony that there is a God, a very good God, a very smart God, a very powerful God. I hope you choose to do good. Those who do good find happiness and will live for ever in happiness. Those who won’t repent find missery and will live for ever in missery. There is life after death.
When I was 14 I questioned the exsistance of God. I reasoned they lied to us about santa claus, maybe they are lying to us about God. I didn’t know whether what I had been taught by my parents and in church (that there is a God) was true or whether what they taught us in school (that there is no God) was true. I wanted to know so I prayed with faith. This was my faith: that if there was a God he would let me know if I asked him. I said God are you there? God didn’t appear to me. I didn’t hear an audible voice. Infact nothing happened just then. I don’t know why but I didn’t stop praying. I still didn’t know if there was a God but I still believed that if there was a God he would let me know if I asked him. So I kept thinking and asking God are you there? After several months of Praying this is what happened. One night as I was going to bed I got a stomach pain. I got into bed but I couldn’t sleep because of the pain. I tossed and turned. I got up. I got back into bed. The pain just kept getting worse. I didn’t know what to do. I got up and walked. I got back into bed. The pain just kept getting worse. After a couple of hours the pain got so bad I thought I was going to die. As I thought “I’m going to die” (I didn’t know if ther was life after death or nothing)I prayed “God are you there?” All of a sudden the pain was gone and a sweet feeling came over me and I knew God was there.
I don’t know any one else who has had an experience like this, but I do know it happened to me. I do know there is a very good God and he is the creator of all things. It just isn’t reasonable to me to think that life and exsistance came about by itself. Explosions don’t create things they destroy things. Read the Book of Mormon and repent and you shall receive the richs of eternel life. I so testify in the name of Jesus Christ.
December 31st, 2009 at 5:03 pm
I had what you might call an anti expirince comparable to yours. When I was a child I use to be deathly afraid of being alone by my self anywhere in the 2nd story of my home. There was no real logical or thought out reason for it, it was just this insatiable fear and dark dreaded feeling of evil that seemed to permeate the entire upstairs of my house. I knew in my head there was nothing up there, that the shadows I saw were not out to get me, yet in my ‘heart’ I couldn’t help but feel it.
One night I set out to find out what if anything was up there. I was alone in the house and I went up to my room, where upon I sat down and hooked up a camera with a microphone and my SNES waiting to feel this presences again. After a few minutes of video game playing my mind began to wonder and as it turned to the previous experiences I’ve faced when alone up stairs I began to feel nervous. I had this rather sudden on set of fear and I almost let myself go, I almost got up and ran down stairs and outside, but I didn’t. I dropped the controller on the ground and stared at the TV for a minute. The fear grew more and more intense. Eventually I started to sweat and my heart was racing. There was nothing there, I kept telling my self. I ended up closing my eyes very tightly as I scrunched my legs up to my chest. At this point I was out right terrified as I could feel something behind me, breathing down my neck. I could feel it reach for me and right as it touched me right as I could feel it’s dark claws sink into my flesh, I force my eyes open to see my attacker and then! Nothing. There was nothing there. My fear had cascaded, rushed over me, and quickly abide. Once I saw that there was nothing I found that all the fear and terror, all the dread in the room disappeared. It was just me sitting in an empty room. No monsters, no demons.
I had turned my SNES off and hooked the camera up to my TV to replay the past minutes. I saw my self shake and quiver I saw my self fear, but I didn’t see anything that could have caused that fear. I didn’t hear any noise in the video, didn’t hear any of the words or sounds which where spoken. There was nothing there. The frames where I felt something touch me showed nothing, I saw no hand or movement of cloths. Everything was merely in my head.
Afterward I still had the feelings of dread, and fear but they where much weaker. As I kept ignoring them, as I began to truly realize what was causing them were my own feelings and head, they fully disappeared. Now every time I feel uneasy I ask my self why and I look around. Once I realize it’s nothing the feeling goes away. The human mind is capable of making us feel and see things that aren’t real. I know this well.
While I do appreciate your story, the fact is other people have had similar experiences and believe in a different god, or gods, and sometimes (like myself) no god.
January 3rd, 2010 at 4:35 am
I believe in God, and I also believe that God has given us the choice to believe in Him. He created us to not only believe in Him, but to love Him and
worship Him.
If somone chooses not to belive in Him, I have to respect that because its a God given right to choose.
For Christians, its much deeper than just believing, even the devil believes in God, its about love and worship. The moral compass that guides even the self proclaimed athiest, does come from God.
We, as Christians, are required by our faith to share the the Gospel of Christ.I do personally feel that a dogmatic approach is less effective. I will share it and leave the rest up to you and the Lord, I am not required to make you decision for, no one can possible do that. it is your God given right to choose, just remember all choices made on this side of enternity are final.
January 5th, 2010 at 2:11 pm
@Mike
I have this nagging burning question that no Christian has ever been able to reconcile, how can we be said to truly have a choice (i.e. freewill) when our future is determined and our choices made before birth? Let me elaborate, you believe that god knows everything, the past, present, and future. Yet if the future is known and determined how can we ever be said to have a choice in the matter? Sure you could try to say it appears you have a choice but in the end that’s all it is, an appearance. At most it’s all virtual, i.e. not real. Perhaps more to the point, given the nature of your god and his supposed creation, it would be possible for him/it to choose any set path or destiny it wished for you, and you would have no say. So in the end all decision all will would have to flow from your god, leaving no room for any freewill. All we would be, all we could be if your god was real is in the end dolls, or actors on a screen. We can move and smile, laugh and cry, but in the end it would all be part of a script which wasn’t written by us, with out even any input from us.
As for morals, we know where morals come from, how they form and the parts of the brain responsible for their function. It’s completely natural, and biochemical and no appeal to the supernatural (or god) is need to explain it. Oddly enough, we aren’t even the only animals to have such feelings and sensations. All mammals feel emotions, similar to our own. Again this is documented and can not be argued against with out throwing out both logic and science.
As for it being my choices to choose, such a possibility could only exist in the absence of such an infinite entity as your god, not with it, and fundamentally all actions are final in this life, however with a bit of education, logic, and work we can make the outcome of our actions for the best possible life we can have, and the only one we truly know exists!
January 8th, 2010 at 11:56 am
It is interesting that most organized faiths do require belief and compliance with their teacings and rules by threat and intimidation. If you do, or don’t do, such and such you will face eternal damnation and torment. They say the god of the old testiment was more vengful and mean than the god of the new testiment. How many gods are there? Did he have multiple personalities? It is obvious that the concept of god was created by man to deal with fears of the unknown. Our biggest fear is death. What happens then? Is it just all over and there is nothing? That is scary. We evolved to survive and developed some very strong devices to enable us to prevail against all threats and obstacles. Of course death is the ultimate obstacle to our happines and peace of mind, so we had to develop some means of coping with that concept. Just as we developed the god of thunder and the god of war and the god of fertility to deal with our fears in those departments, we had to make something up to deal with our fear of death. We made up a belief in an afterlife to help us deal with the loss of our loved ones and the eventual loss of our own lives. We needed this to maintain our own sense of happyness and calm. As we developed our intelligence, knowledge and sophistication, we grew to need it less. We began to doubt the stories we had been told. Daniel Boone was a real man, but do you believe he really killed a full grown bear with his bare hands? Some do. Don’t even get me started on Paul Bunyan. The bible is a collection of stories, in book form, (gospels), the first of which, the gospel of Paul, was written more than thirty years after the death of Christ. The Roman emperor Constantine, a pagan recently converted to Christianity, conviened a counsel and decided which of many gospels would be included in the book we now know as the bible. So, the bible was written by men, from their memories of a man named Jesus, and produced by a former pagan, and published under severe political circumtances. Most Christians have never read much of the bible, let alone the gospels left out of it, such as those of the Nostics. If you can’t believe in the story of Paul Bunyan and his blue ox Babe, how can you bleieve in the stories of the bible? They are all legends, made up by men to serve a purpose.
Earl.
January 10th, 2010 at 3:47 pm
@THE PROPHET
Are you sure it wasn’t gas? I’m just say’n.
January 13th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
To the atheists, some questions:
#1. I understand you do not believe God exists. What do you believe in then, spiritually speaking?
#2. Do you feel there is merit to a divine presence whatsoever?
#3. What do you think of the whole “everything is energy” “law of attraction”, “law of abundance” thing that is so popular now?
#4. How do you explain all of the ghost/spirit experiences that people have?
#5. Do you believe there is an afterlife? If so, what does it consist of, if not, what happens after death?
#6. The soul. What does that mean to you?
#7. If you do not believe in God, do you believe in evil/the devil?
#8. Was there a certain event in your life that led you to “push away” from belief in a God?
#9. was your family religious/nonreligious when you were growing up?
#10. did you ever believe there was a God but changed your mind? (and if you changed your mind–why?)
#11. Even though you currently believe there is no God–is there any need in you for spiritual answers? If so, what?
#12. Do you believe there is merit to performing rituals/spells, Witches and the Pagan beliefs? If so, why? If not, why not?
#13. Do you believe in psychics? As in–do you believe in the ABILITIES of true psychics. Where do you think it comes from, if you believe. If you do NOT believe, why not and how do you explain away true psychic’s abilities?
#14. Do you believe in “the power of the mind” to create what is not already in one’s life? Expand on answer further than yes/no, pls. (this Q. is similar to other questions but not the same)
And I preface what I’m about to say by saying: I do not wish to offend any of the younger atheists, but I’d like to hear from older, adult atheists, please. The reason being: when I was in my teens, I held atheistic beliefs as well but later changed my views. I believed there was no God because of my experiences and circumstances in life. It was not a “true belief” but a belief based upon emotion rather than logic/belief, if that makes sense?
So no offense to the youngers, but I’m hoping for responses with age/experience.
Thanks for your time,
K.
January 13th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
oh, one more question (of course! lol).
If you, as an atheist, could form a religion, what would it be, what would it consist of–doctrine, beliefs, etc.
Thanks!
January 13th, 2010 at 9:04 pm
IAMGOD: I was going to ask that as well: it really coulda just been gas.
I found this site when I goggled “define atheism” because, although I consider myself a Christian who believes in God, I am also intelligent.
I think I support my claim of intelligence through my curiosity and open-mindedness.
I have thoroughly enjoyed [most] of the posts I read although I cringed when I read posts where a “believer” tried to force their beliefs on “non-believers”.
Earl: I found your post the most intriguing. Although I believe in God, a God, my God, someone’s God, but not necessarily anyone else’s God, I have zero faith in the Bible. The reason: well, reread Earl’s post.
I have always said the Bible was written by man and revised by man many times over. Therefore, even if the Bible WAS originated by God, it was tainted, in my opinion, by the personal beliefs of the MEN writing and rewriting it. Devout Christians I know back away and say things such as “Get away from me; I don’t want to be near you when God strikes you!” But, how the hell do they know that God wouldn’t smile down with praise that I was intelligent and inquisitive enough to question such things. In any regard, was anyone that could post here actually around to see the absolute original? As Earl said, legends.
Now, what really made me chuckle was the “multiple personality” comment. Just today, as I read about religion online I came across a reference to Francis of Assisi. I was raised a Catholic but don’t currently practice Catholicism, and I couldn’t remember what he was the patron Saint of, so of course I goggled.
As I read, my mind boggled: in the Book of ———, so and so was referred to as ———-, but in the Book of ——–, that same person was referred to as ———-. Utterly confusing.
Personally, I believe in a higher power; and for me that is God. I choose to believe through my experiences; divine intervention that I really truly believe was my God guiding me to places that I needed to be at, even when I wouldn’t be there under normal circumstances.
However, it is sometimes hard to believe in an entity that I’ve never had CONCRETE AND ABSOLUTE proof of, and I find myself questioning my beliefs from time to time. Ultimately I belive in God because I choose to; but if someone else chooses not to, who am I to pass judgement? The funny thing about Christianty is that a basic premise is that only God can judge, yet so many Christians take it upon themselves to do so.
Someone posted a question about the potential for positive friendships between atheists and non-atheists and here is what i think: it’s very possible for this friendship to exist where two people respect one another and accept one another and their respective beliefs.
January 30th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
I’m a black male who just happens to be an Atheist. Being a black non believer has become somewhat isolating. Most of the women (black) I meet like me until the subject of religion comes up. The guys I encounter want to argue, and debate me. Then they get upset when they realize I’ve done my research, and make them look bad. Just wondering are there many other black Atheist that can relate?
January 31st, 2010 at 3:57 pm
I know there is a label for those who do not believe in God. Atheist. I know there is a label for those who do… Religious. Is there a label for those who believe in God yet does not believe in religion? I’d like to find those blogs.
February 1st, 2010 at 7:59 pm
I’m not sure why everyone is arguing about their religion. Let them believe in what they want, it’s honestly none of your business.
February 4th, 2010 at 7:19 am
@IAMGOD
The voice of God is allegedly thunderous, so it all ties in.
Fartin’ for jebus!
DISCLAIMER: If this comment seems disrespectful, well, that’s because it is. I find it hard to respect a person who will base his entire life on something like the story THE PROPHET tells. Even if the story is 100% true, it proves exactly nothing about the existence of God, just as little as thinking about Vishnu when a bus finally shows up proves that Vishnu delivered it.
As a further analysis of this story, it is quite likely that this is not the first time The Prophet has told his testimony to people. it is a well-known fact that stories, through repetition, get embellished, in particular if they are told in order to prove a point. The reality could easily have been that the stomach ache had been going for some time and The Prophet had been beseeching God to stop it for several minutes before the pain passed naturally. I am skeptical of the “instantaneous” recovery, which is the kind of thing that would get embellished.
Another explanation could be that The Prophet rolled onto his back or kneeled in bed to face/pray to God. This change in body pose could easily rearrange the intestines and release painful trapped gas, causing the pain to subside almost instantly.
In any case, what kind of omnipotent God reveals his existence through causing, and then relieving, gut pain? That is a deeply unimpressive miracle.
I am not impressed with this story. Nor am I impressed by people who are impressed with this story.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:49 am
The Lord will will come again to judge the world
February 13th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
If atheism is true, then there are no winners only losers. Christians would find out that nothingness is the result, of course they wouldn’t know that because they would be a part of the nothingness that all the other dead atheists are also a part of. But the Christian would not have wasted his/her life since they followed a person (Jesus Christ) who teaches them to care for others in compassionate ways all their life. So if the Christian is wrong, (and there really no heaven or hell) no real harm done, the world was a better place because they were ‘nice’ people. However, if the atheist is wrong, whether he/she was a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ person, (what ever good or bad means) hell is an awful place. The atheist better be sure he is right!
February 15th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
In response to Catherine’s question about atheists having very religious friends, I am one who has religious friends and family. I, too, was once a Christian, BUT…I was a Jehovah’s Witness, which is NOT mainstream Christianity and was despised by many people for my “wierd” beliefs. People were mainly upset because as a Witness, I did not celebrate Christmas, Easter, or other religious holidays. The reason being…those holidays had NOTHING to do with Christ. Anyway,you can learn all that on the History Channel. How do I get along with friends and family with their “weird” beliefs? It’s a truce. We don’t discuss it. We each respect the other’s right to be wrong. Interestingly, my family members are far more approving of my atheism than they were of my being a Witness. Interesting, verrry interesting….
February 20th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Pascal’s wager has never been convincing, Jerry. The false dichotomy of Christianity vs. atheism may seem compelling at first glance, until the person realizes that it’s not Christianity vs. atheism—it’s Christianity vs. every other religion vs. atheism. This is the essence of a false dichotomy: pretend that there’s only two outcomes and claim it’s one or the other. You do an excellent job of ignoring the possible truth of religions such as Shinto or Islam.
How about it, thought about what it’s going to be like going to Yomi or Jahannam when you die? According to your logic, both of these beliefs is therefore an adequate argument for Shinto and Islam and you’d better not be wrong about them, now should you? If the Christian is wrong no real harm done? Christian wrong about Yomi ends up in Yomi instead of Heaven; Christian wrong about Jahannam ends up there instead of Heaven. Not very convincing on the “no harm” front.
Perhaps in the future you will properly include these two places (and the thousands of others ever dreamed of through human history) when talking about what might happen to your yet nebulously understood afterlife.
March 4th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
I will try and answer these, if I may:
To the atheists, some questions:
#1. I understand you do not believe God exists. What do you believe in then, spiritually speaking?
I can’t really define a spiritual belief within myself at all. I find beauty and joy and awe at the world and all those kinds, but I would not call these experiences spiritual. My strongest emotional responses to nature have been during my two viewings of total solar eclipses, and at no point during those monumentally beautiful, spine-tingling and awestriking moments did I feel any sort of presence of, or gratitude to, a higher being.
#2. Do you feel there is merit to a divine presence whatsoever?
Since I don’t believe that such a presence exists, it’s hard to answer this. We can’t choose whether or not a god exists based on merit. I would find it rather stifling to live in a universe overseen by the jealous god of the bible, though, with his demand for acceptance as saviour (from the concept of original sin he himself invented) lest we are burned in hell for ever.
#3. What do you think of the whole “everything is energy” “law of attraction”, “law of abundance” thing that is so popular now?
A decline in the power of organized religion leaves a void in people who need narrative structure to delineate and understand their existence. Pseudoscience like the abovementioned flourish in such an environment.
#4. How do you explain all of the ghost/spirit experiences that people have?
I’d turn it around: how do you explain that there has never been any unambigous evidence that a single one of these experiences happened outside those people’s own minds?
#5. Do you believe there is an afterlife? If so, what does it consist of, if not, what happens after death?
No, I do not believe there is an afterlife.
#6. The soul. What does that mean to you?
Nothing.
#7. If you do not believe in God, do you believe in evil/the devil?
I don’t believe in the devil, of course. I will accept the concept of “evil” as the kind of behaviour culturally agreed upon to be unacceptable. With regard to absolute evil, I will go as far as the social programming handed down from us from our apelike ancestors’ flocking interactions, which can account for the certain level of universality of certain “evils” although all these universal evils have been set aside in certain cultures in certain times, of course.
#8. Was there a certain event in your life that led you to “push away” from belief in a God?
No particular event. Learning about religions and science naturally moved me to godlessness.
#9. was your family religious/nonreligious when you were growing up?
They were religious.
#10. did you ever believe there was a God but changed your mind? (and if you changed your mind–why?)
I believed there was a God for as long as I was young enough to believe everything my parents told me. I then found myself in a pseudoscience phase for several years, believing in ghosts and mysterious phenomena of all stripes. Then, I finally broke through that wall and started scaling my credulity with the evidence.
#11. Even though you currently believe there is no God–is there any need in you for spiritual answers? If so, what?
No.
#12. Do you believe there is merit to performing rituals/spells, Witches and the Pagan beliefs? If so, why? If not, why not?
No. It’s a waste of time, effort and energy, and it makes no difference if you do these rituals or not (barring any social interaction and personal feeling of unjustified accomplishment)
#13. Do you believe in psychics? As in–do you believe in the ABILITIES of true psychics. Where do you think it comes from, if you believe. If you do NOT believe, why not and how do you explain away true psychic’s abilities?
What’s a “true psychic”? Show me a single person who is unambigiously able to see events that cannot be known otherwise under controlled conditions. James Randi is interested in this person, too.
#14. Do you believe in “the power of the mind” to create what is not already in one’s life? Expand on answer further than yes/no, pls. (this Q. is similar to other questions but not the same)
No, I do not. I have no evidence that the mind’s power extends any further than to the body the mind inhabits.