Phoenix’s Visiting Preachers

Normally I don’t do a lot of public dissection of the individual actions of preachers I run into, but I decided it was time to write one when Amerist’s mild post elicited the following response from one of the preachers it talked about:

Thanks guys for all the compliments in your writings. Very weak journalism. Sad, your articles are not accurate at all. Fun to read though. I still love you guys! God bless- Jeff

Our articles are “not accurate at all?” I’ll assume he’s specifically referring to the one he commented on, but still that is a ridiculous claim. I was there, and I heard and saw many of the same things. If anything actually is wrong, Jeff, please point it out to us. If we believe it is actually a mistake then we will correct it.

For now though, I want to discuss what these kind and loving guys have been doing for the last several weeks while they have been here.

Local Amp Note

Just a note to the local preachers who may get ideas from this, although we do not want to get into a war of amplification, if megaphones of this volume continue to be brought out then we will be forced to follow suit, and the result will not be pretty.

The first time I saw any of them, it was when Shawn Holes showed up at the First Friday art walk in downtown Phoenix. Being a visitor from out of state, he came in acting like the preachers here used to. Essentially he tried to ignore us and yell almost non-stop into his megaphone. Unfortunately for us, the combination of his megaphone and his already loud yelling were actually physically painful directly in front of him, and he was often successful in drowning us out, at least enough that he could ignore us.

In the subsequent weeks we got to talk a little more to him, and especially to his woefully uneducated son. I feel particularly bad for the kid because he is being brought up to distrust both science and the vast majority of people in the world. He has been thoroughly indoctrinated to believe that the stories in the Bible are literally true, including the creation story, that evolution is a lie, and that all people are inherently evil.

This sick view of the world can easily breed a paranoid martyr complex and a significant disconnection from reality, and can ultimately lead to the disturbingly twisted views of right and wrong espoused by so many of the preachers, some of which will be discussed below.

After Shawn showed up, he was joined by Jeff Rose (an American who lives and preaches in Scotland) and his South African friend Vincent Piater.

Worse than Shawn who just tried to ignore us, Jeff and Vincent were relatively hostile, although Jeff generally tried to maintain a conciliatory tone while he needled us and said things like “I love you guys” which sound very disingenuous to me.

When Shawn wasn’t around, Jeff did most of the preaching. He didn’t seem to mind the challenge too much, but I don’t think he handled it particularly well. Not only did he fail to adequately respond to the issues we brought up, his tactics frequently devolved into childish word games and name calling.

“This is the Atheist Singles Club, none of them have girlfriends.” Jeff pulled that one out several times, despite the fact that many of us are in relationships and we told him so. “They just don’t want to come out here with you because you make them look bad.” He said something along those lines once he gave up on the Atheist Singles Club. I wonder where his wife was? Throwing stones in a glass house, huh Jeff?

Jeff was also fond of calling random people perverts and talking about their “depravity” and other nonsense like that. How can you say those things about people you don’t know anything about? You just have to believe that everyone is pure evil, which he seems to believe, and then you can spew any insults and unfounded judgements you want. Nice.

One member of our group, Joe, was explaining how DNA from two people of the same sex could be combined in a laboratory and grown into a baby, and Jeff decided that was enough to accuse Joe of being a homosexual and to go off on the all-too-common tangent along the lines of “you’re only doing this because you love your sin and you want to deny God so you can continue in your depravity.”

Joe posted a minor clarification in a comment below.

Essentially he would take any chance he could find to ignore the substance of our arguments and turn the conversation into an unfounded attack on one or more of us. As with so many preachers, he seems to like nothing more than tearing people down and making them feel like garbage.

This approach does have its drawbacks though. On Friday night, when I wasn’t there, I’ve been told that Jeff made a very offensive comment to a girl and one of her friends pulled out a knife and threatened to cut the cord on his megaphone, and then even threatened him.

The comment seems to have been something about her dead babies being in Hell, but Jeff flatly denied it on Saturday. Since another of the girl’s friends who was there told us what Jeff had said, and because it seems very much in character for him, I’m inclined to believe that he did say something pretty cruel. Sadly this type of event plays right into the martyr complex, and probably made Jeff feel good about what he’s doing, but it shouldn’t. The guy with the knife was way out of line, but it sounds like Jeff was too.

Overall these loud, obnoxious, insulting preachers seem to create a more hostile and potentially violent atmosphere. Before these guys showed up we hadn’t had any serious threats of violence against us or the local preachers (as far as I know) since Halloween when some of the thugs from The Door church tried to start something with us. On Saturday though, a group of “brodogs” who agreed with Jeff lined up on his side and kept insulting and threatening people.

To his credit Jeff did actually ask them (and us for no apparent reason) not to get violent, and strangely he asked them not to make personal attacks on us when he had been doing it too. Maybe he just wanted to reserve that privilege for himself?

Either way, those and other incidents testify to the hostility that they breed on both sides. We much prefer calm, civil debate, and I am convinced that it is better in many ways for both sides and for everyone else around us. I hope that preachers who read this will keep that in mind in the future.

Vincent didn’t talk as much, but he did manage to make some pretty offensive comments too. The worst one I remember from him was about whether or not it was right for God to decide not to reveal himself to people and then send them to Hell for not believing in him. “So what!?” Vincent yelled, expressing the common belief among the preachers that God made us and we can’t judge anything he decides to do even if it is by our standards profoundly immoral.

This is a very disturbing idea to me. If you can convince yourself that anything done by God is acceptable, it is not much of a stretch to say that anything done for God is acceptable. They already show by their antisocial evangelization tactics that they believe it’s okay to go well beyond what a normal person would say to strangers if you’re doing it for God. If it’s okay to malign anyone and anything that disagrees with their interpretation of the Bible, and to automatically reject any idea that doesn’t fit with their beliefs, what might people like this do if they can be convinced that they’re doing God’s work? Maybe the better question is what wouldn’t they do?

I do believe that they have all convinced themselves that their methods of evangelization are just fine. They may not even think that they’re being malicious, but they are. They denigrate every person in the world, with particular animosity reserved for those who oppose them. Animosity in love’s clothing is still animosity.

I am perfectly willing to be civil with these people, and I am not a violent person, but I do not “respect their beliefs”. I respect their rights to hold bizarre and unfounded beliefs in bronze age mythology, and even the extremely outdated creation story that comes with it, but I openly scoff at the content of those beliefs. An intelligent and thoughtful child can see through them, and the only things that keep these inane beliefs alive are the twin abominations of faith and indoctrination.

I have tried to be nice, but the continued lies and abuse hurled by these “servants of God” against my friends and me, all while calling us liars, has provoked me to respond with more venom than I normally direct at preachers.

So why didn’t I respond directly to these people individually in private rather than calling them out here? I don’t think that there is just one single reason, but there is an appropriate Proverb that I learned from a Christian friend which sums it up pretty well.

Open rebuke is better than secret love. – Proverbs 27:5

If they want the secret love then they’ll have to go tap their feet in public bathroom stalls like the all-too-prevalent homophobic-homosexual preachers and government officials.

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About Kazz

My name is Shawn Esplin and I am an advocate of Free Thought and general good sense and thought in general. To that end, I encourage people to seriously question the things that they have been taught, especially as children, because many of these things - religious and secular - are taken on faith until we actively choose to seriously examine them for ourselves.

8 thoughts on “Phoenix’s Visiting Preachers

  1. Shawn, you should edit the part there about me. The quote was that it is possible to combine male and male as well as female and female DNA in an egg for full fertilization. I do not recall if a child was allowed to be formed, however the fertilization was successful. I’d have to look it up again. I just want it to be fully clear. Oh and Rocco brought it up and I took over when the I’m-Louder-So-I’m-Right answer started.

    JMelfi

  2. Hey Guys no comments were ever made about any babies being in hell. I have no idea where you dig this kind of stuff up. Also, I never called anyone trash, I said their hearts are full of trash, and this is why they speak garbage, which is true. Get it right, or don’t write.
    Your still suppressing the truth, you still need to repent of your sin and put your faith in Christ. Quit whining about all the supposed resistance and get right with God. you guys are a joke.

    God bless,
    Jeff

  3. Errr…Jeff, you’re the only one who’s used the word “trash” here, so I don’t know why you even said it. You definitely did call people perverts and homosexuals and other names though, and you said a lot of other unkind things.

    That is why, despite your protestations, I am inclined to believe that you said something offensive on Friday. Like I clearly stated, I was not there and I was only going on the account I heard from another witness to the events, but you did say plenty of mean things to us and I have a hard time believing that you didn’t say anything to provoke the incident on Friday. That does not mean I think it was okay for him to pull out a knife, but you should take responsibility for your part.

    If you didn’t say anything about anyone’s babies being in Hell, then what did you say?

    You say that we are “still suppressing the truth”, but I have not edited or suppressed a single word of any comment you have made here, and I have invited you to point out any errors you can find in what we have said.

    The only thing you’ve actually pointed out was an incident which I already pointed out was in dispute, so I don’t know what the problem is. If you can clarify or give your side, please do, otherwise we only have the side I heard on Saturday. If I can find out any more about it though, I’ll post it here.

    For someone who pretends to want to avoid personal attacks and to want to help people, you sure do insult people a lot. I don’t think “you guys are a joke” qualifies as anything but a personal attack, and an unfounded one at that.

    If we’re a joke, then go ahead and post about all of the things we got wrong. If you realize that we’re right though, or at least that this is the way other people see what you’re doing, then you might want to consider altering your tactics a bit and judging your own words as harshly as you judge the words of others.

  4. Actually you are foolish. All sex outside of marriage is a sin against God whether you or any of your comrades find it offensive. Its not whether you find it offensive, but rather you have offended a holy God with your sin. I asked Joe if he was a homosexual considering he was so adamant about defending this sin.I never called him one. There is a difference.
    Secondly, all men are sinners by nature. This means that all are perverted according to the righteousness of God. So, yes. Those to whom I made the comment to was accurate.
    If you guys really believe there is no God, then why do you follow Christians around and be pesty. If God does not exist, then why waste your time? You must understand that you are sinners deserving of God’s wrath. You have violated the law of God and before God you are guilty. This is why God sent His Son to die. Regardless of your petty little arguments about me or anyone else does not change the fact that you need forgiveness for your sin. Someday you will stand before God and give an account for every thought, word and deed.
    You can get upset and argue with people until you die, but you must wake up to your sinful condition and repent(turn from your sin) and Trust Jesus Christ by faith to save you.
    I will leave you with these final comments- God bless- Jeff

  5. @Jeff – Thanks for stopping by our blog. I hope you realize that we aren’t here for you, but for other people who are rational, open-minded and live in a place we call reality. So we’re speaking to the same audiences, but unlike you we do not denigrate them or insult them. We do, however, feel that you add a lot of entertainment value, and for that I thank you.

    We repent nothing. Have a good day!

  6. I’m sorry Jeff but most (if not all) of us disagree with your basic premise, namely that a god exists, and this god is the Judao-Christan god. We debate the street preachers on mill, because we disagree with both your method and certain parts of your ideologies, namely the part that removes reasoning and logic skills from people. You can see it in the way you argue or in the lack of coherent arguments you make. Using your same argument we could conclude that secretly you don’t believe in god, and you have to go out to mill every night to convince your self otherwise. Now I don’t believe that’s necessarily the case with you (though there are more then a few preachers who I’ve come to suspect it is). The point your argument claims that disbelief accompanied by argument implies belief when clearly this is not the case. To use another analogy, global warming deniers should in fact believe in global warming. Again probably not the case but the logic is the same, and clearly flawed. We DO NOT believe in your god, and most do not believe in any type of god.

    Arguing against something which has far reaching effects in real life (not all of which are positive) and which we have come to discover is ether likely false or at the very lest not well supported, is the only logical conclusion we can come to. We argue and try to debate with people like you because we see belief with out and in spite of evidence as a bad thing intellectually and in some case even physically.

    P.S. Telling someone who honestly does not believe to follow your beliefs (Namely repent to god) isn’t likely to work very well. There are better ways, such as presenting actual sources for your claims.

    I wish you well, and I hope that you’ll be more open minded in the future and less hostile. We don’t wish you any harm.

  7. You guys should really quit trying to convince Jeff that he’s done something, everything he does he has holy right to do, because he takes the bible literally and follows every part.

    http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

    Except for maybe everything else that he doesn’t like to follow of course, religion is merely a convenience crutch after-all, you don’t need to follow all of the things it says, just the stuff about people you want to be able to hate.

    And that’s what Christians are all about, the love of hate.

  8. I was there on Mill not Friday night but Saturday night. I don’t believe what Jeff says about not saying anything to provoke the opposing group. Because that is a tactic that everyone uses in any form of debate. You provoke the opposing side to get them riled and then make yourself the vistim. Very cheap.

    And a note to Jeff.
    We who oppose god and Christ are not there for you or any other religious head. We aren’t there to cause fights and we aren’t there because we enjoy getting yelled at by you or any of your mindless followers. We are there to say our peace and debate over the existance of God, when there is no real hard evidence to support his(or her) existance. You are following the rules in some book that was written by a man(human) who “said” he felt the presence of “God” and “heard him speak” to him. We would call that insanity in today’s world. And that book has been re-written so many times now that allot of the original writtings in the original bible are not even in there anymore. You just can’t base your entire life on a book, any book. That’s just not very logical.

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