Not really, an intersex person’s Genome will almost always consist of one phenotype, XY or XX. Male or Female. It’s the physical characteristics which tend to be skewed. Mind you that many intersexed individuals do not feel that their genome actually reflects their psychological state and hence will seek out a mate with a phenotype similar to their own, i.e. a HOMOsexual one. So an intersex person who looks more feminine and identifies as a women may have an XY Sexual chromosome (genetically male) but would likely seek out a male as a mate, and hence be at a genetic level homosexual.

Good to know that Hitler was redeemed while many of the gays tortured and killed by the Nazis are burning in the lake of hell fire. Godwin for the win! The problem is your phrase “Genuine Christian” is completely subjective. What you say is a Christian may not be what another person considers to be Christian, and the bible is in no way fully clear on this.

Given that two people of the same sex can’t marry acodding to the bible, your question becomes a loaded one. As I already explained above an intersexed person is very to be in a homosexual relation.

Some people have no internal sense, and are physically asexual or bisexual. The same goes with intersexed people. You see this is the problem that this article was pointing out, that the biblical vilification of sexuality is completely and utterly bullshit, due in at least part because it does not deal with such real world examples as intersexed individuals.

Humans, just like other animals, don’t always have a clear sexuality or a clear physical sexual orientation. Hell, it’s possible to argue that some homosexual individuals are intersex in that their wetware is wired to exhibit homosexual attraction while exhibiting physical and psychological traits of their genetic sex. i.e. I can argue that there is a strong semblance between intersex and homosexuality, in that a homosexual individual will likely have cortex feature identical to the opposite sex and hence give them a native attraction to the same sex. Hence if intersex is biblically OK, then homosexuality must be as well.

There is no clear “internal gender” though.

I see, so is a true Christian anything like a true Scotsman? I’m sorry but historically it has been the case that christens were indeed “queer-hating”, and I’m sorry but many modern christens aren’t much better. More to the point, it’s not your place to judge.

Anyone who favors their fan club can not be said to be impartial. Plus like I’ve pointed out, if homosexuality is a sin then in all likelyhood any sexuality by an intersexed person is also likely a sin as it’s likely homosexual at some level.

That’s great, it’s good to know that the activities of two mutually consenting adults are no worse (or better) then murder. You know just the other day

God also condemns heresy as blasphemy against the holy ghost. Be carefully how you interpret your scripture. One false move is truly unforgivable.
Fundamentally you continually speak of TRUE christens. Unfortunately that is not your place to decide. Even by pointing this fact out you are still judging that some people are or are not true christens. You can’t do this. Since only god can judge and you are clearly trying to judge the behaviors of other christens you are in fact (knowingly or not) raising yourself to the same level as god. This is most certainly blasphemous, if not our right heresy.
Bit off topic, but this is why I’ve stopped arguing with street preachers. I’ve come to the conclusion that if the bible truly is correct (which I’m dead certain it’s not) then they will be just as likely as me to burn in hell. If the bible isn’t an excuse for Hitler, then why would it be for anyone else?
Luke 6:37 ““Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven”
Basically so long as you don’t judge other’s you will not yourself face complete judgment, your sins will be forgiven, you will be allowed into heaven, ect… However, should you judge then you your self will be judge by the same full set of standards that the other is being judge upon. Hence Christ’s blood will not save you as you would have effectively wiped it away in this instance. You can’t judge another and expect to end up passing gods judgment, as it’s not your place.

To be fair that is arguable. From what I’ve studied the bible only tells of Jesus talking to the Jews directly, never the gentiles. It was the apostle Paul who supposedly started talking to them. Given the original Jews law and prophecy their savor would be theirs and only theirs, non Jew could not be saved by them because they are not of the chosen race. So it is possible depending on how you interpreted scripture that the teachings of Jesus are only for the Jewish race and not everyone can be saved. Bit of a red herring I suppose but worth pointing out.

In contrast to the natural world, sure.

By that stamen other afflictions such as homosexuality, which is likely partially genetic, but at the very least physiological, are not immoral.

Well they don’t directly, there’s no scripture that directly refrences them and everything must be subsumed via induction and scripture. Problem is people are not god, and by the cristan definition of god (which is itself, self contradictory) they can not think like him and hence will make mistakes.

Sure they do. Many groups of christens believe in prayer to cure afflictions like cancer. They believe the tumor is a physical manifestation of their sinfulness and that praying for god’s purification they can be cured. It’s complete and utter BS with no empirical backing, but it is what many believe, and their interpretations so nears I have found is well backed by scripture.

I don’t know if I’d classify intersex as an actually disease persay. It’s really a much more complex issue then that.

Bingo.

No, your initial statement is more or less correct. The bible does not directly mention intersexed people, and with good reason. The initial Christian cult was based around a distorted view of Judaism, which itself only had provisions for male and female individuals. The idea of intersex was incompatible with the Jewish idea of women being more or less property and men being the head of a household.

To be fair you can justify pretty much anything by sufficient abstraction. The bible can be used however you chose to use it. Personally I’d prefer the idea of it being inclusive rather than exclusive, but if you take a literal standpoint such a position is not possible.

Pedophilia and infanticide are not condemned in the bible. Pedophilia is not mentioned even once, in fact the whole concept of pedophilia is a relatively modern psychiatric idea that was really pioneered by secularist. While it’s true that there were early societies which had restrictions on sex and sexual intercourse, marriage has rarely been so fully controlled until recently. We have law “books” from many early civilizations and in general there are no real prohibitions on pedophilia, least of all in christens and Jewish communities. As for infanticide I have only one real response: Psalms 137:9 “How blessed will be the one who grabs your babies and smashes them on a rock!”
Of course there are more quotes then this but I think this one really strikes home the point.

Only if it actually is a disease there are some out there that would not classify it as such.

That’s great, but it makes no physical sense what so ever. Cancer is not caused by sin, but by damaged DNA, which it self is a necessary effect of BASIC chemical interaction. There is no way for our reality to support any other type of chemistry and still have us live. Intersexism is similarly based on chemistry, but the interactions are far more complex and interwoven. This is the main reason I can’t believe the bible, anytime it trys to describe the world on a physical level it absolutely fails. The only way people can “salvage” it is by alluding to some unobservable spiritual reality. Which by the definition used can not actually exist.
-EGO

There is no conflict between God, the bible or christianity with a Married christian intersexed person having loving committed marital relations with their wife or husband. There is nothing God could condemn in this therefore it has God’s blessing and is sanctified by God. God makes beautiful what was once perverted and ugly!

John
Vancouver , Canada

I disagree with the first sentence since at the same time it could be said the person is having HETEROSEXUAL sex too! since both male and female genatalia are present. The bible would look at such a person and ask…

1.Do you believe christ rose from the dead and are you a genuine christian?

If so, you are redeemed!!!

2.Are the people in the example given married or are they fornicating?

3.Now that you are redeemed and loved by God since you are in fact a christian, what is you gender from your natural INTERNAL inclination/sense? Are you a women or a man? If your are a man then you must marry a christian women. If you are a women, marry a christian man.

So, since God created men and women from both a PHYSICAL perspective AND a PSYCHOLOGICAL perspective it does not necessarily follow that a condemned homosexual act is being committed in the example given above! (more details are needed before we could decide)

If a intersex person professes christ that person must acknowledge and turn from all their sin, discover their internal gender and marry a christian accordingly.

Now they are a practicing christian, who has a physical abnormality as a result of the original fall but this person waits for the redemption of their body but in the meantime is able to walk in the joy of God’s continued love and grace while they walk in obedience to him!!!

RE***there is no way a good queer-hating fundamentalist Christian could support such an “abomination***

This is an attempt to discredit christianity altogether by identifying people who practice a “queer-hating fundamentalist” brand of christianity with the true Christianity and the true God of the bible.

The fact of the matter is…

When it comes to sin, God is IMPARTIAL. A sin is a sin is a sin. Yes, homosexuality is one of them.

As a christian i can sit down and have a cup of coffee with a person who also happens to be homosexual and tell them that homosexuality is not “good”. I am called to love and be at peace with all men as much as is possible but i am not called to compromise the truth that homosexuality is sin. I dont over emphasize the sin of homosexuality to the exclusion of a whole other plethora of sins that both homosexuals and heterosexual are both equally capable of!!!! like…lying, stealing, murdering, gossip, Idolatry, materialism, greed, malice, hate etc etc.

In summary, the God of the bible, while he is not fixated on the sin of homosexuality as some think he is, he nevertheless condemns it. Does that mean that christians should beat up on Gays? No, it should humble us that God has forgiven us OUR sins and our only response from there should be to be gracious toward other people and their sins. This is TRUE CHRISTIANITY NOT what the poster wants to PRETEND christianity is because of his own prejudices against it?

Problem 1.

Male and female he created them in the image of God
(Genesis 1:26-28)

When the first act of disobedience plunged humanity and the natural world into chaos and separation from God did the curse of God include the possiblity of a persons inability to repent? Doesn’t the bible teach that all have the potential to repent?

Christian doctrine teaches that natural calamity, death and disease is a consequence to the first act of disobedience.

When a person discovers they have cancer, diabetes, heart disease or any other kind of sickness the person with these diseases still has the faculty of the will in tact and can turn to God and ask forgiveness of sins.

The tumour itself is neither moral or immoral a disease.

Where do people who have the disease of “intersex” or hermaphrodite fit into the biblical paradigm?

A person with a tumor does not have to struggle with the question of “how do I repent from a tumor?”

But what about the person with the disease of being neither male nor female according to the constitution of their genitalia? Does it fit the biblical picture that God calls all men to repentance? Would God place within the initial curse of creation the possibility of being born with a physical feature that is neither male nor female? And if so, why would he do so and how can one repent of a physical feature?

Or is the biblical picture itself not a true picture of reality as it truly is?

In need to explore this topic more fully but it seems impossible to reconcile the existence of intersexed people with the classic christian doctrines or is it? (without going into them) There are alot of Christian doctrinal truths that seem to fall apart because intersexed people exist. It would fit the biblical picture more “cleanly” if intersexed people did not exist. Maybe the God of the bible doesn’t exist after all or does he???

Maybe a intersexed person can come to faith, acknowledge their bodies are “fallen” as a result of the original sin but “wait for the future redemption of our/their bodies” that the apostle Paul speaks about. So, even though intersexed bodies are ultimately a fallen biological situation these persons can come to faith in christ (of course), like the rest of christians, they too wait for all of creation to be redeemed? Non intersex christians cannot look down on intersexed folks since they should concentrate on their own relationship/faults with God!! This last paragraph is an attempt for me as a “intellectual christian” to reconcile classical christian doctrine, the infallibility of the bible and the belief in the existence of the God of the bible with the reality of intersexed people. It is a working hypothesis.

Christians cannot escape the truths that homosexuality is clearly condemned in the bible ALONG WITH pedophilia, adultery, murder, infanticide and while Jesus might forgive such sins it does not mean they are therefore condoned by him. God hates ALL SIN and must punish sin if he is to be called TRULY GOOD. Remember God is LOVE but he is also HOLY. Homosexuality perverts gods original intention for male and females from a physical perspective and also from a psychological perspective as well. Neither are natural or “Good.”

Tumors and ambiguous genitalia are in the biblical paradigm not gods original intention but through Gods present action of redemption they are (physical disease) in the process of being redeemed, as is the spiritual dimension, too ! , being redeemed. According to the bible and the new testament there will come a day when Tumors and ambiguous genitalia will be no more! Then, redemption will be COMPLETE. See revelation chapter 22 and…

“We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our BODIES. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently” (Romans 8:23-25).

Thanks,

John
Vancouver, Canada

“I’ve realized something while reading the comments people left that argue with religion. You all are pointing out the faults of man.”

Yes, the faults of a man made religion.

“Its inaccurate to argue with religion ( especially with one that you already have a biased opinion about ) and continue to point out the faults of man and tie that in relation to god. People, christian followers or otherwise, are going to make mistakes. We’re still going to make them. The point of religion is to show love to all.”

The point of religion isn’t to show love to all, not by any means. You may wish it to be so, but if that was the case then we could consider the Christian religion to be an utter failure as the vast majority of christian don’t display this behavior. Now that means that ether the majority of Christians aren’t TRUE Christians (the no Scotsman fallacy).

“For the people who point out that christians discriminate against lesbians and gay people, lets take a second to remember that Jesus’ teaching were on love. Discrimination is not love, therefore to discriminate is to commit sin. To discriminate is to judge, which is to commit sin. Therefore, christians who “hate” or discriminate against gays, lesbians, transvestites, hermaphrodites, are committing a sin. we’re supposed to love all, whether you do right or wrong.”

Your argument is flawed. Put simply love according to the Christian bible is god, therefor anything that god does is love. Not only does the bible identify god as discriminator it paints him as an out right monster who kills children.

“As I have mentioned before, no human on this earth is perfect.”

Nope, perfection is it self a bit of an oxymoron.

“The bible teaches us that man wont be able to understand everything. Thankfully I’m glad of that because some people could use this information for evil.”

Lack of information is is easier used for evil then information it self. By keeping someone ignorant it’s more easy to manipulate and confuse them.

“Humans will only be able to percieve what god does through their own mind.”

The same goes with everything in the world. We can only understand it all through the use of our own gray matter.

“You can’t say that your understanding is the right understanding, its just your perception.”

Your right, no one can. That’s fundamentally because there’s no verifiable evidence for the existence of one god over the others.

“The only one that has the right understanding is our God jesus christ (whether you believe in him or not).”

Ad Hock assertion, with out evidence your point is pointless. Consider that every other religion out there would disagree with this statement. Why are you right but they are wrong? Plus if such a figure actually existed I would expect more to have been recorded about him.

“So you can try to use whatever facts and WORLDLY proof to disprove something SPIRITUAL….good luck with trying to fight one realm against another. Thats kind of like trying to use one atom to say that another couldnt possibly exists because this atom does. The two worlds dont meet so stop trying to compare them.”

If they don’t meet then there’s no interaction between them. That means things like miracles, and god’s intervention does not, and can not occur. I don’t think you mean to imply this but it’s a natural consequence of your views. It would also imply that something like the soul has no physical hold on anything physical, which would imply that it has nothing to do with you and hence could not exist as it is describe by most other christens.

“To take a step away from this, those who believe in the theory of sciences. You use your science as a way to explain EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING through what you see and here.”

Yes because the only things I have to base my reality on are the things I observe. That’s simple common sense. Even by reading and using the bible I would be using my physical senses to do so. The only difference between me and you is I’ve reconciled that the physical world and the bible do not mesh. Since the bible gets so much wrong about the physical world, and perhaps more importantly has no single meaning, I simply have no way to use it to understand anything, other then perhaps the mind sets of Christians.

“You use science as your own form of a god to explain everything for you.”

No I don’t actually. I don;’t bow down and worship science, I don’t offer sacrifices to science, and I don’t kill people in the name of science. I’m, sorry but NO ONE seriously treats science as any form of god.

:However science is nothing but a study, percieved and manipulated through your own mind to have your own understanding of something. The human understanding of most things scientific is this “if this and this matches, than these two things with similar patterns as the first experiment must also match” which is a great explanation of why trying to cure cancer is going so well, but I digress.”

Um, no. Science is based around the idea of Modus Tollens, basically the whole idea behind science is that it gives us a systematic and logical method to understand the universe by showing that something is false. That’s why religion can’t be considered science, since it’s meaning is left to interpretation we can’t falsify it. Even when we falsify one particular sub set of beliefs, say a young earth, people will just shift their beliefs to something else, like old earth creationism, and decry the thought that the now falsified beliefs apply to them. Fundamentally, religion can’t explain the world because it doesn’t give a clear description to begin with.

“The whole point of this is that you cant prove God doesnt exist.”

I also can’t disprove Unicorns, Leprechauns, Gremlins, Thor, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or anything that exists out side the realm of proof. What I can do though, is prove that there are no Unicorns behind my bed, or in my room, or in my house. Once I’m given proper parameters I can show that something does or does not exist within those parameters. For instance with god, you and many others claim the he answers prayers and heals the sick. Yet when I run an experiment on this idea (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567) I find that prayer and belief in god have no real positive side effects. Hence it is safe to conclude that god and prayer does not interfere with the healing of the sick and dieing. Refusal to accept that is simply refusal to accept reality.

“Humans naturally gravitate towards something spiritual because its in our soul. somewhere in there, you know that God exists. People wouldnt create an idea of an all-powerful being that created the universe out of thin air.”

You don’t know much about human psychology then. We gravitate to the idea of the spiritual because we don’t understand the world. In order for many of use to make sense of it we come up with our own explanations. Since the thought of randomness scares many people they tend to look for an orderly reason for everything, something that mus involve intelligence. This way they can make sense of it all, this way they point to the hardships in someone’s life and feel good about it because they know it is the will of the god(s). Why else do people have such massive differences in interpretation of the spiritual?

“Instead of trying to find answers, just to twist them so that you can understand them, just show people love.”

Love is a loaded word in Christianity. It’s not all the same kind of love that I feel for my friends or family. The love as expressed in Christianity is based off of it’s god who according to the book a jealousy vengeful and wrathful god. These are not aspects of love in anyway shape or form, and that though that you would consider it to be is frankly, terrifying.

“The foundation of Jesus’ teachings were on love, were they not? People try to depict these high religious figures as evil, but if Jesus is stopping people from stopping people from stoning a sinner, then that must say a lot about what people think is evil and good.”

Your god is comprise of three individuals, at lease one of which killed children and support the killing of many people. (see passages: Isaiah 13, Leviticus 26, Exodus 12, etc…)

“So, all I leave you with is this. Instead of trying to prove that something is wrong through worldly knowledge, speak to god from the heart and get answers there.”

And what if one’s heart is corrupted by Satan, or whispers the words of a foreign god? Or is it only when your god is represented that its the truth? I’m sorry but physical evidence is all we have to go on, feeling and emotion can and do deceive.

“Just show love to people over hate, and anger, and greed, and any other sinful natures and your life will be happy.”

Good advice, and one that does not require a god to be true. People can do both good and evil works with out god, but I would argue that it takes the belief in god for someone to twist something good (such as the love between two people) into something evil (homosexuality as a sin).

“Note that I may not respond back to messages. My rant is over woohooooooo”

No comment.