Be a Good Christian Hermaphrodite

Hermaphrodite Symbol

What does it mean to "Be a good Christian hermaphrodite"? How can we possibly know without consulting the Bible? Let’s do that now.

The Bible spends quite a bit of time talking about and legislating sex, and for many millions of people it is the single unquestionable source of perfect moral teachings. What then does the Bible say about the sexual relationships of intersexed people? Little to nothing.

This leaves the few Christians who even consider the question with a dilemma. "Do I try to find an answer hidden in other Bible verses, do I make up my own answers, or do I simply dodge the issue in a way that can’t be seen as sinful?"

While most seem to take the latter approach and ignore the issue or give meaningless answers, some of the more moderate Christians actually understand the issue and take a more reasonable approach, ignoring the "slippery slope" to homosexuality, and accepting gender reassignment surgery and sex with the opposite of the chosen gender.

Fundamentalist Christians on the other hand seem to have only one possible answer, as given by the infamous preacher "Brother Jed" to an intersexed friend of mine: Abstinence. He prescribed life long abstinence.

The reason that no other answer was viable for him is that he shares the common fundamentalist idea, which appears to be supported by the Bible, that homosexuality is a horrible sin. If a physically intersexed person is allowed to have sex with anyone then they would at least outwardly appear to be having homosexual sex, and there is no way a good queer-hating fundamentalist Christian could support such an "abomination".

Sister Pat, one of Brother Jed’s sidekicks, said that an intersexed person could get into heaven by "living as a good Christian Hermaphrodite", although what exactly this entails was never made clear. Brother Jed himself also opined that the reason some people are born intersexed is that their parents were bisexual.

Hermaphrodite Statue at the Louvre

Hermaphrodite at the Louvre

This shows a gross misunderstanding of genetics and sexuality, and basically punishes babies for their parents’ "sins" through the miracle of divine intervention. If these scapegoated children live their lives in complete devotion to God and abstain from (potentially homosexual) sex and all other sins to the best of their ability, will God, their omnipotent creator, perform the simple miracle of assigning them a singular, complete gender so they can then produce a family to worship him forever?

The answer seems to be no. Like the miraculous healing of amputees, miraculous sexual reassignment does not happen.

The reality is, like most people in general, many Christians do not know what actually causes people to be born intersexed, and they have just as little information about how these people should live their lives.

Intersexed individuals (formerly described as "hermaphrodites" from the Greek god Hermaphroditus who possessed both male and female physical traits) are those who are neither exclusively male nor exclusively female. They may have biological characteristics that are both male and female, expressing physical traits (phenotype) of one sex but possessing the sex chromosomes (genotype) of the other. Variations in physical expression occur, and it is possible that someone who appears physically "normal" is, in fact, intersexed due to their genetic makeup. The birth rate of all of these "hermaphrodites" is generally 1%, and while this sounds low, remember this is one out of every 100 births[1].

In most societies intersexed people have a hard enough time already without trying to live by the conflicting and often unrealistic expectations of Christians and their outdated and inadequate book.

The best an intersexed person can do is find what feels right, with the help of genetic testing and counseling if necessary, and with or without surgery just try to live life the best they can as the gender(s) that they feel they are.

1. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality

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About Kazz

My name is Shawn Esplin and I am an advocate of Free Thought and general good sense and thought in general. To that end, I encourage people to seriously question the things that they have been taught, especially as children, because many of these things - religious and secular - are taken on faith until we actively choose to seriously examine them for ourselves.

64 thoughts on “Be a Good Christian Hermaphrodite

  1. I enjoyed your comments on intersexuality. I am one of the 100% you where talking about. I have learned to except things the way they are. Having to live as a intersexual does make me question the bible a lot. I don’t blame God for being born intersexual. I do however blame society for not being more educated about the subject. We all have our cross to carry. Someday I hope to set down with God and ask all these difficult questions. Everything is not black and white there is quiet a bit of gray. I have a book out called Looking Beyond the Mountains. You might want to read it. You can order it form amazon.com

  2. I asked the same question to a friend of mind who claims to be very astute in the teachings of god and he said dont even talk about that thats disgusting he just dodged the question what because the bible doesnt have an answer you just ignore their existance he just had a horrible terrible awful veiw on the subject in a way its worse than racism and im sure more people are prejiduced to hermaphrodites than to any one race it just makes me feel sick so much so im not even sure how to express how i feel its still up for debate weather or not homosexuality is genentic or not but being a hermaphrodite is 100% not a choice and you cant even get a sergery if you go by the bible at least thats what christians say it would be VERY hippocritacal to say men and women cant get surgerys to change thier genders because god made them that way for a reason then go and say oh god made a mistake it has both genders lets try and fix it so what is a hermaphrodite to do my question is if a hermaphrodite has sex with another intersex person is that homosexuality, are men and women really opposite genders if so where does intersex people fit in to the equasion i have too many questions and i dont know how to phrase them im not saying gods imperfect or that the original bible was imperfect but the english copies that we read most deffinetly are and its time people start admitting it but too many people beleive that admitting falt in the bible means admitting falt in god i wonder myself why an allpowerfull god would allow an inferior copy of the bible to circulate to unsuspecting readers but the fact remains a mistake was made somewhere in translation or maybe a corrupt curch removed parts they deamed unchristian while copying bibles way back when maybe there was never anything about it to begin with who knows but people should think about it not just ignore or disregard it as erelavent to themselves anyway i cant think of a way to end this rant so ill just say by

  3. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

    There’s… There’s no punctuation! Where dose the last idea begin? Where dose the next one end? I’m so confused.

  4. I have just come to educate myself on the statistics concerning hermaphrodites. In all the years I have been in ministry I have never met one, however I realize now that I just might have but they have been silent about their condition. I have not prayed about this just yet as I am still in the fact gathering stage. However I do not believe that God wants a hermaphrodite to live in guilt in any way shape or form concerning their sexuality. heterosexual people live in sexual sin just like homosexual people and a hermaphrodite can do the same. None of us should live in sexual sin. I personaly beleive that a hermaphrodite should be frr to choose a life long partner, get married and enjoy their sex life, (both organs) as long as the marriage is entered with their mates emotional health and full understanding, love and of course faith in Christ. There should be no shame where sin does not exist. no matter what we have been born into.

  5. Please do not question the Bible or God. Remember, the Bible and God are infallible, it is people who are not. People may misinterpret the Bible because people are not perfect, like God is. I do not have the answers and I do not claim too. But I can tell you all this. God loves you whether you are intersexed or not. Jesus died for everyone’s sins, not that I am saying being intersexed is a sin. I am just saying that He loves all of us. Rely on God who loves you and do not let people turn you away from Him. Again I say, God loves all of us – intersexed or not.

    On another note. God made you the way that you are. He did not make a person that was broken, malformed, weird or disgusting. He made you beautiful and unique. Society has no right to say otherwise. I love you all my brothers and sisters in Christ and I accept you the way that you are.

  6. “Please do not question the Bible or God”

    Every thing should and must be questioned. Other wise we can never know the truth. To try and put something above questioning is to out right ignore any possibility of it being wrong and any evidence against it.

    “Remember, the Bible and God are infallible, it is people who are not.”

    But is this not the interpretation of a fallible person? You believe the Bible to be infallible the fact is it doesn’t have to be and in fact would seem to be other wise. More to the point seeing how there are so many widely differing interpretations on the same book, what dose that say about it’s author(s)?

    “God made you the way that you are.”

    So then did god also make people with other genetic characteristics such as the gens for ASL, homosexuality, promiscuity, sociopolitical tendencies, etc?

    Don’t get me wrong I’m very happy that you say you accept everyone, but if you do you have some serious question to address regarding your faith, your holy book, and reality.

  7. Hello EndGameOmega,

    I am sorry that I have upset you. It surely was not my intention. I am saddened that it has. The purpose of my comment was to reach out with love to people who have experienced rejection and been subjected to cruel words. In any case I will try to respond to your questions as best as I can.

    “Please do not question the Bible or God”

    In this particular instance, I am referring to people who question the Bible or God solely because of supposed Christians saying that the Bible or God is against them. I do believe in looking to the Bible and praying to God for answers to my questions. I am not suggesting that people believe in a God that they do not know. You have to know God to believe in Him. It is through the Bible and prayer that people know Him.

    “Remember, the Bible and God are infallible, it is people who are not.”

    You are right I am fallible. I do not claim to be otherwise. But the Bible and God are not. I cannot convince you to believe in a Bible and God that you do not believe in–that is between you and God.

    Different versions of the Bible slightly differ because fallible people translate it. Translating old texts written in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, written without spacing between the words and punctuation, is a difficult task. Even with the minor differences in the translations, the majority of the message remains the same.

    Again, this was geared towards Christians who stray because of what people say. But I do hope that you one day find a relationship with God–even though the intention of my comment was not to preach.

    “God made you the way that you are.”

    Yes God did make you the way you are. Promiscuity, murder, sociopathic behavior and etc. are choices that people make, not a way that God made us. God gave us free will and some people choose to use their free will for bad. As far as genetic diseases such as cancer, Alzheimer’s and etc.- I cannot say why disease exists. Maybe it is a result of people using their free will to contaminate the earth which causes genetic defects, or maybe there is another reason of which I do not understand. God never promised us answers to every secret in the universe, He promised to be with us, to forgive us and to give those that come to Him eternal life. I do know that when people suffer, God is there supporting them. I mention that God made intersexed people the way they are. Do you consider being intersexed a disease or a moral problem? Because you compared it to these things. I did not say being intersexed was a disease or sin. My intention was to say that God made intersexed people as whole beings who He loves.

    You mention homosexuality. First off, I do not classify intersexed people as homosexual. Either way, yes the Bible does mention homesexuality as a perversion in God’s eyes. Is it a sin, I do not know. I think it is a bigger sin, to reject and alienate homosexuals. There is a large focus in the Christian community on homosexuals. So much focus, that people forget what God focused on. Very little of the Bible talks about homosexuality. It is not mentioned in the 10 commandments. Let us just say that it is a sin, for the sake of argument. Prostitution is looked down on in the Bible, but what did Jesus do. When the people were stoning the prostitute, Jesus stopped them. He said, “May he without sin throw the first stone”. Then he wrote something on the ground. What he wrote, we do not know. A pastor I once listened to, mentioned in a sermon, that he always imagined that Jesus was writing the other peoples’ sins on the ground. I wonder? What the Bible does tell us is that nobody was without sin, so they could not throw the stone. Jesus the son of God, took mercy on this prostitute. Does that sound like the mean, cruel, hateful God that some people portray! Look at the acts of Jesus, He acted with love and compassion.

    You say that if I accept intersexed people that I have to question the Bible and my faith. That is not true. The Bible does not call intersexed people sinners. Jesus also tells us in the Bible, not to judge. So Christians who are judging others are wrong.

    You do not have to agree with anything that I have said. It is your right to disagree with the Bible. You can nitpick it if you want. Like I said, I did not come here to preach. I hope that you find peace in your life. I did not come here to attack you or anyone else. If you have questions of me, I will answer them the best that I can. If not, that is fine as well.

  8. This is just my opinion, but here goes:

    Many of us are born with either male or female organs, and therefore the rules of heterosexuality is enforced upon the masses in the bible, however, for the intersexuals (the special cases), the sin of homosexuality perhaps cannot possibly be committed when one is born with a Vagina AND a penis, however, (this is an example) there are intersexuals born with a penis, and develop breast’s later in life. If this is the case, God has given you a penis to create life, so perhaps for this TYPE of intersexual, he should choose a woman as a mate, since I child cannot be created with a man.

    And people, keep in mind, if you pray to God and create a spiritual relationship, God will speak to the heart and lead you to the right path. God is above human opinion.

  9. Or it could just be the result of random gene sequencing and any attempt to impart a moral imperative upon someone due to there sex is not only unfair, but also unwarranted. Trying to say that someone must fit a certain gender roll based upon there sex organs and/or chromosomes formation ignore a significant amount of modern biology and human development, all of which draws in to question the nature of genders as a purely anatomical concept. That’s the point of this article, by pointing out the case of someone who is intersex it throws into question the idea of assigned someone a gender based solely on there anatomy, because an intersexed person doesn’t have a necessarily defined sexual anatomy.

    Thought the possible reasons for someone being intersexed are numerous they are fairly well known in many cases. The vast majority have to do with fairly well understood genetic and biological cues all of which are natural in origin. If we where to sequence the initial DNA and monitor the hormonal balance of the mother or carrier, we could predict whether someone would end up male, female, intersexed or other wise. There is nothing supernatural about it.

    As for finding a spiritual relationship with your or any other god or gods, what I can say is the actual act of praying or meditation can lead someone to believe they are having a religious experience when in fact they’re just activating various parts of the brain, such as the temporal lobes. This explanation is so interesting because it explains why all religious activity, even when devoted to different gods or even no gods produces nearly the same physiological and mental effects. These effect can and are exacerbated by physical and emotional stress, such as after fasting or child birth, serious surgery, etc. Again there are well know medical reasons for why you feel the way you do when you pray to god, and they are all completely natural explanations which require no outside interference from supernatural sources.

    Anyway, if you have any questions or comments, feel free to leave them. I will try to address any directed to me as time permits. Take care.

  10. Hermaphrodite- the “true” hermaphrodite person is the most baffling subject for western religions,
    Jewish, Islam, Christianity and all that fall under or within each, to deal with. While they had to
    exist during the time of Moses, Abraham, Jesus & Mohammad there is absolutely NO mention of
    any sort (Eunuchs are not Hermaphrodites) at any place in any way or a single verifiable inference made of any kind about these people anywhere in the bible. Therefore, “simply” put, these human beings were not seen as outcasts or as sinners or as defected or as mistakes or as mutants or as the result of sins committed
    by their parents or as anything outside of being the most normal of creations known to have been created by the god of these religions. How blessed it is to have been ignored by the God of the western world for all these yrs. If only the homosexuals had been so fortunate.

  11. I just heard about a new book that is coming out about this. It is by a British author called Susannah Cornwall and it is called “Sex and Uncertainty in the BOdy of CHrist, Intersex Conditions and Christian THeology.” I agree witht he people above who sais intersexuality is not a sexual orientation like homosexuality, it is more to do with gender ID.

  12. Being intersexed has nothing to do with gender identification, it has to do with a person who is born either both male and female or neither male or female.

    A person can identify as man or woman, or something else if they are intersexed. It’s society that has the problem with us and we end up internalizing it and being forced to choose instead of going with what is natural to us.

    I’m going to deny myself anything in my life, whether it be love, happiness, or my favorite books, etc. just because someone else thinks they know what’s right for me. It may take time for me to understand what the Bible says in relation to myself, but I’m not sitting on my butt judging people just because I may be wrong about something.

  13. *it has to do with sex, not gender. There’s a difference.

    *I’m **not** going to deny myself…

    Some typo fixes.

  14. This is just my opinion, so take it or not. I mean no harm or insult, but has the consideration been made that takes into an account the story of Genesis and When God made Adam he was made complete. Then when no helper could be found for him God made woman from Adams body. Could it not be thought of that these intersexed people are not genetic deformities, but rather throw backs to an example of Genetic purity when man was made complete. Therefor still being just my opinion, but that would mean that these intersex individuals where not either man or woman, but rather an example of man as he was before Eve.

  15. Hello everyone,
    I am an intersex person I am now 51 years old.
    I have read the comments and I too have some insight I would like to add to this conversation. I must say I am a single Christian and have lived my life in pursuit of God’s will in my life. The Bible is the word of God and I have read the bible many times. Jesus him self has not said anything on the topic of Hermaphrodites or Homosexuality. It was others around him that AWAYS talked about homosexuality as lust , rape hate. sin worthy of death. People that are not homosexual are thought of as having caring loving relationships but then it comes to homosexuals the bible assumes that they some how leave the natural affections of the opposite sex for that of the same. My question is what about the people that have NEVER had the affections or inclination to desire the opposite sex. The men of the bible assumed men are born “heterosexual”. That was not true in their time nor is is it true now in 2010. Disciples may be the authority when it comes to how to walk with Jesus, but NOT the authority when it comes to human sexuality or sexual development. Please do not confuse the two. The science of a persons sexuality was NOT available to the people of the Bible times. That’s why it is so confusing for “the Church” to understand 2010 facts about sexuality. I was BORN with two intact sexual origins. It was my Father and the doctors in 1958 that decided which sex I was to become. They chose male. The never took into consideration that sometimes the sexuality in the brain is still “hard wired” regardless of what the outside looks like. Still the church feels like if your outside looks like one sex then you must marry the opposite sex and produce children. The only problem my father and the doctors chose surgery that has left me sterile. That’s How God set things up. The “Church” says. I can’t choose a male person to love because my outside look to much like a man.
    If you are born intersex it is possible some people are born homosexual. I don’t understand why Bible scholars feel the need to shut down the science of 2010 or only give answers about sexual formation the Old Testament Bible. The people of the Bible were fisherman, Great leaders of their people, men and women of God but NOT the authority on sexual development.
    I am not a angry bitter man, I am just sad at how some people still view people like me with out ever knowing one.
    Thanks for reading my comment.
    English is not my first language so I hope you can understand my heart.

  16. To Mark: Always remember this about the authority figures such as the 12 that walked with Jesus. When Jesus came back from the grave, he appeared to all of them at different times, and they all admit in their writings, just how afraid they were to see him again. This should be clear indication that they did not believe most of Jesus’ teachings in his lifetime. We all can read the bible how we want to, but the truth is that the bible is written from man’s point of view with inspiration of God in mind. The reason that the bible cannot state this issue, is because no one in that era really cared for anyone that would be considered “unnatural”. People in biblical times had an idea of who would be God’s elect, and only wanted to reach those worthy of serving God, that fit into a certain critiria being met. People still consider gays, lesbians, and hermaphradites to be taboo, and it was 10 times worse in biblical times. The laws of Moses were not perfect either, look at how they treated women, and supressed the woman’s value and point of view. I would imagine that if a woman today had to live by Moses’ standards, that she would not be so quick to defend the punishments listed with a reference to men lying with men, or women lying with women. How about Paul preaching how it was unnatural for man to lay with man, in it’s degrading passion. We are all mammals, which makes the human race tie in with animals, and 1500 animals were observed in sexual behavior, and found 500 species that form homosexual relationships with one another, and mate for life. That seems very natural to me, considering that animals do not read the bible. People will never except what they can’t or don’t understand, which is why the secular christian community spends more time condemning someone to hell, and less time trying to help everyone find their way to God. If we really think about it, Christian doctorine is not so clearly defined, as people try to make it out to be. There is no surprise to me, why more people become aitheist people, and the number one statement that is reoccurring among most of them is, that they would rather serve no one person or God and treat people like crap, than to become a cult of mainstream dogma and hate everyone. I hope this helps. I love you all, and please know that we are all beautiful no matter how the world sees us all. God Bless.

  17. I must agree with a preacher I once heard say that if the person is born with both parts there is hope of understanding. The reason the woman is called a woman is because she carries a womb. If a hermaphrodite has no womb then that person is a man. If the person has a womb then she is a woman. Regardless of all the other things that make her seem to be more of a man. NO WOMB NO WOMAN.

  18. @ Karl K,

    So a woman who has a hysterectomy is no longer a woman. That’s exactly what I’d expect a true Christan to say, after all woman are nothing more then objects, and if the object is defective it must no longer have any worth.

  19. Well I have to say that this is indeed a lively discussion I stumbled upon. I will humbly offer what my studies have led me to conclude on the matter of intersex and scripture;
    According to the bible, gender is the representation of the relationship between Christ and his elect. Christ being male (the bridegroom) and all those that are his elect regardless of there physical gender make up the Spiritual Church (his bride) that is the female conterpart of this relationship. (Please do not confuse this church with your local church down the street). This simple explanation is the definition and purpose of gender.. It is a spiritual reality not a physical one. Gender in our physical realm was incorporated in our creation as quite a great mercy to us because it points to the heavenly reality. Being that we are physical beings and that spiritual things are not in our native realm we naturally perceive our physical gender as the real deal rather than the rather murky shadow it is, just as any other earthly shadows of heavenly realities always are. ( For example the earthly Jerusalem in its full glory as compared to the heavenly). The existence of intersex is yet another huge blessing because it disallows the possibility that the fulfilment of gender could be in the physical realm. Not only does it not allow for gender to be nothing but a shadow on earth, it point it out as such. Since gender among humans is a shadow a cannot therefore impart any spiritual significance or distinction between physical humans, the is therefore no differetiating humans before God by any physical variation gender,height, weight, race…etc. When you read the Bible apply the spiritual concept to the seemingly sexist verses and you may be delightfully edifed. I hope this was helpful.

  20. @Domingo Mora
    “According to the bible, gender is the representation of the relationship between Christ and his elect. Christ being male (the bridegroom) and all those that are his elect regardless of there physical gender make up the Spiritual Church (his bride) that is the female conterpart of this relationship. (Please do not confuse this church with your local church down the street).”

    I’m really curious how you would back this up with just scripture.

    “This simple explanation is the definition and purpose of gender.”

    Except in the modern light of biology it fails to answer anything, and seem far more like hand waving. It’s like your trying to say these two things are vaguely similar and therefor must be the same, with out showing as much. I can find some level of similarity in any unrelated objects, it doesn’t make them related it just means your brain is good at picking out patterns and making rationalizations.

    “It is a spiritual reality not a physical one. Gender in our physical realm was incorporated in our creation as quite a great mercy to us because it points to the heavenly reality.”

    Except for the fact that gender likely originated due to evolutionary pressure as described by the red queen hypothesis. I’m sorry but I don’t see anything heavenly about the swapping of genetic material for the sake of improved protection from parasitic infection. Amazing in a naturalistic sense, sure, but not spiritual in any sense.

    “Being that we are physical beings and that spiritual things are not in our native realm we naturally perceive our physical gender as the real deal rather than the rather murky shadow it is, just as any other earthly shadows of heavenly realities always are. ( For example the earthly Jerusalem in its full glory as compared to the heavenly).”

    Of course, we have evidence for the physical. We can see it, feel it, and interact with it in predictable and defined ways. You make it sound like reality is just a shadow when all indications would indicate the opposite and that anything spiritual is just a shadow produced by the physical. If you have any actual data to suggest other wise then fine, you might have something, but as of now this is just a baseless assertion.

    “The existence of intersex is yet another huge blessing because it disallows the possibility that the fulfilment of gender could be in the physical realm.”

    What? I’m sorry but I just don’t understand what your trying to say here. By what do you mean “Fulfillment of gender”? Do you mean the idea that people are suppose to fill defined gender roles? If so then I’m sorry to break it to you but the concept that people must fit a defined gender roll likely originated with religion. Sure there might be a general tendency for males to leave the pack and hunt while the females stay behind to watch the young; the rigged idea of set gender roles would likely have to have originated from ritualistic origin (memes).

    “Not only does it not allow for gender to be nothing but a shadow on earth, it point it out as such.”

    Gender is determined primarily by genetics followed by hormonal concentration and queues. I don’t know how you can describe any of that as mere shadow seeing how it has defined and predictable out comes.

    “Since gender among humans is a shadow a cannot therefore impart any spiritual significance or distinction between physical humans, the is therefore no differetiating humans before God by any physical variation gender,height, weight, race…etc.”

    Which you’ve yet to actually prove, as such this would qualify as a baseless assertion.

    “When you read the Bible apply the spiritual concept to the seemingly sexist verses and you may be delightfully edifed. I hope this was helpful.”

    I don’t know, every time I’ve read the bible I just came away with more questions then answers and a headache.

  21. This is a topic which is mostly ignored by Christians. Personally, I feel that the existence of this condition proves that homosexuality/heterosexuality is not as cut and dry as people would like to believe. It is interesting that Christian apologetics states that the hermaphrodite should be allowed to choose which gender to identify with as they mature and become more in tune to who they are “inside.” Yet they reject this exact same philosophy when applied to homosexuals. To me, the very fact that hermaphrodites exist proves that gender/sexual identity is way more complicated than we think. It has many factors involved. Only the person can decide for themselves who they really are. Perhaps there are some who are born male but really identify with female. The hermaphrodite shows us that this can happen and anyone who ignores the facts is just skirting the issue rather than facing it head on. I am a heterosexual Christian. Typical soccer mom with kids. However I have always struggled with the way the church views homosexuals simply b/c I have known several of them. Once you actually know someone who is homosexual it may change your view. I don’t think people who do not have a single homosexual friend have any right to judge who they are having never even interacted with them. Having homosexual friends makes me wonder what exactly is the big deal. I still struggled with it until I learned about hermaphrodites. That proves to me the ambiguity is there in many people and for them, they must choose. I think that God may have given us this condition to prove that it is not a clear cut issue.

  22. Holly I’m with you. I have been brought up a Christian, and have always been told that Homosexuality is a sin. But more and more I am feeling this sadness for people who honestly feel they are born homosexual. My Christian background tells me that I must discriminate against these people. But my heart is telling me that maybe there is something more to it than what we were taught. Should people be torn to a point of depression, living in the closet, suicide because of their (sin) when this may be a natural disposition to be attracted to the same sex. Or for many born with both characteristics and made to choose. And if there are some born with both organs, than how many whom feel more male or female than what their bodies are born too, go undiagnosed, and live with this feeling like there is something wrong with them. Is that what God wanted of us. What about Love one another. Is it loving to discriminate against those that are predisposed to homosexuality?

    Searching for answers…. Thanks for the article. It’s opened up some doors of though.

  23. I agree with you EndGameOmega about the more you read the bible the more confused you become. I know of many Christians with fundamental beliefs that admit they don’t understand scripture. I personally do not believe neither versions of the bible are the inerrant word of god. I believe alot of pagan beliefs were put in the bible by man, along with many authors own opinions (just read Exodus) and you start to wonder who is worse, god or satan.

    I started studying these issues about christianity, the bible, heaven/hell, reincarnation when my gay brother passed away. What many bible thumpers don’t realize is that hermaphrodites can be extremely varied as far as sexual organs and looks go and many go through stages where they are attracted to one sex at a certain time of the year and then the other sex at another time. Studies were actually done on the brains of homosexual/heterosexual men and women by using thermal imaging of the brain and they found that the brain activity of gay men matched that of straight women while lesbians had the same brain activity that straight men had. Let me guess is the god of the bible trying to fool us into hell?

    Dusty why don’t you “prove” to me that the bible is “infallible”? How do you know this? Is it because of what other people told you? Searching, you do not make no sense either, what do you mean you find yourself feeling more and more sorry for people who “believe” they are born gay? Why would anyone in their right mind choose to be gay? I actually feel sorry for ignorant people like you. Do any of you people ever think for yourselves, the fact that hermaphrodites even exist should make you want to question what has been written by very corrupt men in some ancient book trying to push their own religious beliefs that strayed far from Yeshua’s original teachings. I am not atheist by the way but a unitarian deist, I was a baptist at one time and I have read the entire AKJV bible. I have finally strayed from those false teachings.

  24. To Holly, and Searching

    Please remember that God is not responsible for these individual’s sin. It is the responsibility of the individual to be as they should and to follow the will of God. It is by their choice that they do not humble them self. God doesn’t make people homosexual, the devil does. Those who bask in their homo ways will see judgment for it. Do not judge God for these people sin, we have no right to question Him! As for people like “EvidenceNotBlindFaith”, “EndGameOmega” and others on this site, they should be ignored. Satin has corrupted there thinking. Look how they cling to there myth of evolution, and how they worship their science as a god. Do not be fooled by them! You have only one life to prove your worth, do not fail!

  25. I started a quest for answers regarding homosexuality when it became a huge sin topic with Christian pastors, in churches and in bible studies. Why were judging homosexuals so harshly?

    I then thought about intersexed individuals and what the bible said about being born physically a man and a woman.

    Then I thought what makes a man a man and a woman a woman? And… What makes a man attracted to a woman and a woman attracted to a man? Is it just physical characteristics? Is it upbringing or parents or your genes or hormones or x or y factor? Marriage is between a man and a woman but it doesn’t describe exactly what makes up a man and what makes up a woman. Very confusing….

    I am a heterosexual married woman. My children are heterosexual. I do not have any family members who are homosexual. I don’t have any close friends who are homosexual. I generally disagree with mainstream media so I am one that can’t say that is indoctrinated by the media . So why my quest for answers about homosexuality? It was the constant discussions about it in Church and with Christians and pastors etc. Why is the homosexuality sin picked on more than even murder or pedophilia?

    This is my personal conclusion and how I am handling this as a Christian. Love is the greatest gift. Judge and you will be judged as you have seen with pastors taking up this cause. This very complex issue is between the participants and God. If the church had to be filled with people who do not sin then we would have empty churches. I choose not pick on one sin. When I take the plank out of my own eye maybe I will be able to judge but until then…. I leave it up to God to decide.

    A whole other discussion would be explicit sexual content in movies, television, and the internet. You just can’t watch television without being bombarded with it. Sex sells. That is really sad and I feel is very damaging to our society in general.

    God Bless you all…

  26. I have of late been thinking about what it really means to die, trying to understand what my purpose is because of that, and trying to come to the closest understanding of the truth as possible. I know I will not be the first or last to ponder what life means, and maybe I will be pondering for as long as I live. I seem to find myself naturally drawn to God, though I am just as naturally adverse to hearing people preaching about God. I have no agenda other than finding as many answers as I can, being open to peoples views and opinions, and researching so that I can begin to formulate the best answers. One of my many questions would be the elusive intersex, homosexual, transvestite, heterosexual (ect.) delimma. I am only grouping them together as they involve sex and are different yet intertwined in a gray area of sexuality that I would like to understand better. I do feel like the guidelines presented in the bible are like a picture into the cause and effect of the things we do and the consequences that will most likely follow. I myself have experienced consequence and I can say on that point it is accurate. I think there are things however that are easier to label as “sinful”; murder, rape, violent crime etc. But there are things the bible does not address, and not all the answers are given. We were given brains however, and feelings. I think perhaps we are meant to find our own understanding of these things and what feels right to ourselves. Maybe people naturally want to displace their regret for what they see as their own indiscretions by persecuting and judging others, but I think maybe this is the worst fallacy of them all. It also seems that many people have the idea that life is only religion or only science, but I think they can support each other. I am not preaching this as a philosophy, it is just my thoughts that I am sifting through as I go along. I do feel that we are all changing a little every day with each experience we have, and for anyone to think they are perfect enough or have enough of the right answers to tell others how they should think or feel is a bit naive. I don’t really have a point I guess, but I will say I have appreciated reading thoughts from people that are intersex as only they truly understand it, and hearing from them is the only way for us to even come close to understanding. I suppose that is the same for anything we don’t understand however. So I say it is sad that so many people want to ostracize and go on witch hunts instead of enjoying learning about people that are diverse or different from themselves. I however think it’s great to learn new things as it makes me a more enriched person. Enjoy who you are and enjoy life and live it to the fullest because time is to short! Hope everyone finds the knowledge they are looking for!

  27. My daughter is intersexual. She was also adopted in her late teens and she and I were both unaware of her being intersexual until recently. I struggle with the concept. I see my daughter, who has the physical body of a female, identifying as a male and it drives me crazy. She prefers to be called a he and other than a physical body representing female, everything else seems male. The way she thinks, processes thing, interacts with others, is all typical of how a male would. I believed for years she was gay and butch. Now i’ve recently learned, and so has she, that her chromosomes are actually XY. Which to be honest, explain ALOT!! I’m not handling the news well, mostly because she’s daughter for so long it’s difficult to transition to a he now. The people at the church I attend and she USED to attend do not accept this. I must say, I don’t exactly accept it either, on grounds of my ignorance to the subject and where I should stand as a Christian and as a Pastor. She has recently started attending another church and there they accept her as male and are starting to refer to him using masculine pronouns. They don’t see any issues with her having a female body being with another woman sexually due to the fact she has MALE chromosomes. They have actually taken the stance that her being with a man would be homosexuality because she has male chromosomes and also identifies as male. If she identified as female they would support her in being female. They have no Biblical backing for this belief which is where I have my issues in their belief. At this particular church the Pastor and ALL the leadership are in support of her transition to male.

  28. I believe that every intersexed person has a particular gender that they choose more so over the other. As a Christian the intersexed person should just merely decide which gender that they are attracted to and date and marry only in that gender. They do not need to do any surgery or drugs unless they choose to.

  29. @The1TrueGod If you’ve always had the desire to be with the same sex since childhood, then how can you be responsible for homosexuality? As a Christian I’ve struggled with my homosexuality. I’ve been taught to hate it and to stay away from it. But how can I, if it’s me? I believe the Bible is vague on the issue b/c God wants us to ask him about it. What does he say about our homosexuality? I say “our” b/c it’s really no business of yours to condemn me for my “sin”. Doesn’t Jesus say “he who hath no sin cast the first stone”? So how can you stand there and judge me. Until you have no sin, then you have no authority to condemn me. I have prayed about this issue, for my own life – and others, and God was very clear to me in saying that He has never asked me to not be homosexual. He’s only asked me to love him. The Bible confirms this. Jesus says the number one thing for us to do is to Love God with all of our hearts, minds, and souls. Instead of worrying about who’s doing what, why not just focus on loving God. I believe all else will then follow. But I am gay. I accept that and I know that Christ accepts me for everything that I am. So why can’t the church? Love all people b/c God loves all people, just the way they are.

  30. im tired of hearing these so called preachers/ theologians saying there is nothing even remotely spoken of in the bible about the hermaphrodite state of dual gender et al to all this has been formost in my mind on this subject for a few years now read read genesis 5 vs 1 and 2 very carefully , dont be scared…read it again very closely these 2 gender entities male and female at this point in the beginning were given 2 distict unit individuls titles
    these two distinct gender identities were called a collective “m”mman, and then again one name for both entities indicating a singularunit individual…. male and femeale made HE them and called thier name…..ADAM
    GENERALLY THEMES LIKE NAME ASSIGNMENT REPETE IN THE SCRIPTURES. HERE IN THE FIRST BOOK OF THE BIBLE IS A EARLY THEME THAT NEVER REPETES… NO PLACE ELSE IN THE BIBLE ARE TWO PEOPLE OF ANY GENDER BORN AT THE SAME TIME GIVEN ONE NAME TO SHARE. ACCORDING TO THIS PASSAGE IT SOUND ( AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WILL PROBLY HAVE ME COTRCT LYNCHED FOR THIS BUT HERE IT CANNOT BE ARGUED IT SOUNDS LIKE ADAM WAS C CREATEDA PHYSICALLY INTERSEXED HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!! READ THAT PASSAGE AGAIN YOU BESPECTACLED THEOLOGY BETTER THE YOUZ. GEN-5-1&2 NOW A SLIM FEW OF YOU ARE SAYING YEAH WELL THE MALE WAS ADM, AND THE FEMALE WAS EVE LATER OF COURSE THIS BECAM ETHE CASE NOW SKIP BACK TO GENESIS 2:21-23, THIS IS WHERE WE ARE INFORMED GOD PUT ADAM INTO A DEEP SLEEP AND REMOVED A RIB FROM HIM WHICH GOD USED TO MAKE THE WOMAN AND GOD THEN BROUGHT HER TO HIM. IN THE LAST VERSE OF THIS SERIES IT SAYS
    THIS ( WOMAN) IS NOW BONE OF MY BONE AND FLESH OF MY FLESH BECAUSE SHE WAS “TAKEN OUT OF THE MAN
    IT IS A LITTLE MYSTERIOUS BUT IN THE CRREATION OF ADAM THE NAME ADAM WAS ATTACHED TO A MAALE AND A FEMALE ENTITY PERSON, IT READS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE ADAM WAS CREATED A PHYSICAL INTERSEXUAL AND LATER THROUGH AMIRACLE GOD EXTRACTED THE WOMAN ( SHE CAME OUT OF THE MAN HALF OF ADAM AND GAVE HER A SEPERATE PHYSICAL EXISTANCE.
    THAT MY TAKE ON WHERE HERMAPHRODITES CAN BE FOUND IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE….ANY ONE ELSE??????

  31. Can’t they just check their chromosomes? XX or XY or XXY? Is this too simplistic?

  32. If I may be so bold as to add to this discussion,
    Romans 14:23
    But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

    Whatever physical properties a man or woman has, there is only one dominant sex in part with God’s design. I have much faith if that is in question God will reveal His plan. Now when it comes to sexual relations, as it was before mentioned, intersexuals, homosexuals, and heterosexuals can all be forms of sin if it is a part from God’s design.

    Should you pursue a Godly relationship with a godly man or woman, and God had shown you his design for your marriage, you will be blessed.

    However, should you be uncertain, having a relationship would be a sin since it is not through faith.

  33. @Alisun:
    If I may add something here: God clearly states homosexuality, relations man and man and woman and woman, is wrong. However, the feelings of attraction are not addressed. If you engage in a relationship with another man that would be a sin, since that is not God’s design for marriage. However, lust towards a man is still lust, a sin, lust as looking at a woman lustfully would also be lust, a sin. Because of our disobedience and the nature of the curse we have to deal with things like disease and misaligned sexual preferences. But if we do not give into these desires, whether lust or in action, and pursue God’s intention for marriage (man and woman), we have no reason to doubt or question

  34. @ Rich:
    How could you not accept what your son cannot change?
    If God has designed him as a male, XY, there should be no issues with this. Sin is the source of all disease and distortion, but your son is not in sin for being that which he asserts he is. How can you be pastor and be blind to physical reality? Start loving your son as you ought, as is your duty as a father. Repent, ask Jesus to forgive you, and make up for what you have broken. Praise God he has another church to accept him.

  35. @ Confused.
    My heart and prayers extend to you. That’s the difficult thing with the heart, in the bible is announces the heart as being deceitful, and it’s hard to accept that. But there is a God who loves you so much that he died for the truth. Jesus descended from heaven to live among us and experience pain, hardship, rebuke, rejection, even from his own people, even from his closest disciples. But he’s alive now and bends to restore and love us. I pray that you could find this love.

  36. @ Thunder
    I firmly believe you have mis-translated that verse.
    There is a reason
    NO PLACE ELSE IN THE BIBLE ARE TWO PEOPLE OF ANY GENDER BORN AT THE SAME TIME GIVEN ONE NAME TO SHARE.

    Because they weren’t.
    Adam is repeatedly called a man,
    and Eve was called Eve with means mother of nations.
    They share a name because we even do that today,
    it’s called marriage.
    Even Paul said the mystery that two become one flesh,
    and it is a repeated theme, that marriage joins two into one,
    this whole movement shift with two master suites is to accomodate two
    individuals who say they’re married but are too afraid to involve themselves and gain physical, spiritual, and emotional intimacy.

  37. @ Diane
    Thank God for you, sister. I really appreciate your insight into this, with references to scripture. I do not agree with bashing, and well, we see that Jesus became angry with bashers and over-religious zealots.
    Paul would go on to list homosexuality with ENVY in the same list,
    a sin many churches can be found guilty of.
    I agree we need to let God examine each and every one of us and we need to keep with repentance so that the Spirit may bear fruit.

    But as far as what makes a man or a woman, any person who loves God and seeks His face will receive His will for their lives. He will reveal what we need to live by and give us what we need. In Christ we find our identities, but if something is uncertain, if we go ahead with it anyways God calls it sin.

    I will keep you and yours in my prayers Diane, dear sister, thank God you are raising your children to love Christ.

  38. @ Every one else:
    I am sorry I have not responded to every post,
    but I responded all I have to say.

    God bless you all, and hope to see you topside!

  39. I’ve realized something while reading the comments people left that argue with religion.

    You all are pointing out the faults of man.

    Its inaccurate to argue with religion ( especially with one that you already have a biased opinion about ) and continue to point out the faults of man and tie that in relation to god. People, christian followers or otherwise, are going to make mistakes. We’re still going to make them. The point of religion is to show love to all.

    For the people who point out that christians discriminate against lesbians and gay people, lets take a second to remember that Jesus’ teaching were on love. Discrimination is not love, therefore to discriminate is to commit sin. To discriminate is to judge, which is to commit sin. Therefore, christians who “hate” or discriminate against gays, lesbians, transvestites, hermaphrodites, are committing a sin. we’re supposed to love all, whether you do right or wrong.

    As I have mentioned before, no human on this earth is perfect.

    The bible teaches us that man wont be able to understand everything. Thankfully I’m glad of that because some people could use this information for evil.

    Humans will only be able to percieve what god does through their own mind. You can’t say that your understanding is the right understanding, its just your perception. The only one that has the right understanding is our God jesus christ (whether you believe in him or not). So you can try to use whatever facts and WORLDLY proof to disprove something SPIRITUAL….good luck with trying to fight one realm against another. Thats kind of like trying to use one atom to say that another couldnt possibly exists because this atom does. The two worlds dont meet so stop trying to compare them.

    To take a step away from this, those who believe in the theory of sciences. You use your science as a way to explain EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING through what you see and here. You use science as your own form of a god to explain everything for you. However science is nothing but a study, percieved and manipulated through your own mind to have your own understanding of something. The human understanding of most things scientific is this “if this and this matches, than these two things with similar patterns as the first experiment must also match” which is a great explanation of why trying to cure cancer is going so well, but I digress.

    The whole point of this is that you cant prove God doesnt exist. Humans naturally gravitate towards something spiritual because its in our soul. somewhere in there, you know that God exists. People wouldnt create an idea of an all-powerful being that created the universe out of thin air.

    Instead of trying to find answers, just to twist them so that you can understand them, just show people love. The foundation of Jesus’ teachings were on love, were they not? People try to depict these high religious figures as evil, but if Jesus is stopping people from stopping people from stoning a sinner, then that must say a lot about what people think is evil and good.

    So, all I leave you with is this. Instead of trying to prove that something is wrong through worldly knowledge, speak to god from the heart and get answers there. Just show love to people over hate, and anger, and greed, and any other sinful natures and your life will be happy.

    Note that I may not respond back to messages. My rant is over woohooooooo

  40. The matter of human sexuality is “hidden” from mankind. In the garden of Eden the “flaming sword” was placed there to keep those out who dont reside with a focus on the tree of life (as opposed to the tree of knowledge-good and evil came from the same tree), and who dont walk in life with love. The most simple answer to rebuke the fundamentalist Christians nosing around in their legislative efforts is to tell them that the Christian Bible (i.e. “New Testament” under the new covenant with God through the redemptive work of the Cross, and Jesus, ie “Christianity”) mandates only two things for the believer: 1. That THEY love the Lord and 2. That THEY love their neighbor. This means if someone is Gay, or Bi, or Transgendered, or thinking about it, that it is THEIR responsibility to love the Lord. According to prominent doctrine, the Lord loves them back-as they are. There are no specifics, and it is entirely a personal matter. Further, if the Christian has a neighbor (boss, coworker, relative, etc) that is Gay, or bi, or transgendered, or whatever, it is THEIR responsibility to love them. To test the definition of love, according to the New Testament Christianity, Love is that which “covers a multitude of sins”. To the bible thumper, or most sincere believer strugling with the issue, your love for neighbors should include confusions about any kind of sex.

  41. …not to detract from ongoing blog subject, but, there are some who believe God to be of such love that “fretting” over the issue is really not his will or intent. Be who you are. Make the issue smaller than life. the challenge is that if Jesus loves you, He really loves you the way you are today…So, hermaphrodites and everyone else, are subject to the same universal law of love.

  42. I was baptised as an Methodist. When I was 10 my father was killed in Viet-Nam. My mother…thinking she needed to provide her son’s with an father figure married another Navy Man. He was an bi-sexual and an pediphyl (My appologies for the spelling errors). He made me feel like sex from a man or a woman was O.K.. I truely believe that an hermaphrodite would be the perfect mate for me because I like both sexes. I can be affectionate with a woman or a man, and I like being loved by a woman or a man. Does anyone else feel that way? I want to meet an hermaphrodite for love and an life-long commitment. Any takers?

  43. Long post warning. I’ve quote the original poster to try and give context to what I’ve written as it’s all in direct response to their points.

    “I’ve realized something while reading the comments people left that argue with religion. You all are pointing out the faults of man.”

    Yes, the faults of a man made religion.

    “Its inaccurate to argue with religion ( especially with one that you already have a biased opinion about ) and continue to point out the faults of man and tie that in relation to god. People, christian followers or otherwise, are going to make mistakes. We’re still going to make them. The point of religion is to show love to all.”

    The point of religion isn’t to show love to all, not by any means. You may wish it to be so, but if that was the case then we could consider the Christian religion to be an utter failure as the vast majority of christian don’t display this behavior. Now that means that ether the majority of Christians aren’t TRUE Christians (the no Scotsman fallacy).

    “For the people who point out that christians discriminate against lesbians and gay people, lets take a second to remember that Jesus’ teaching were on love. Discrimination is not love, therefore to discriminate is to commit sin. To discriminate is to judge, which is to commit sin. Therefore, christians who “hate” or discriminate against gays, lesbians, transvestites, hermaphrodites, are committing a sin. we’re supposed to love all, whether you do right or wrong.”

    Your argument is flawed. Put simply love according to the Christian bible is god, therefor anything that god does is love. Not only does the bible identify god as discriminator it paints him as an out right monster who kills children.

    “As I have mentioned before, no human on this earth is perfect.”

    Nope, perfection is it self a bit of an oxymoron.

    “The bible teaches us that man wont be able to understand everything. Thankfully I’m glad of that because some people could use this information for evil.”

    Lack of information is is easier used for evil then information it self. By keeping someone ignorant it’s more easy to manipulate and confuse them.

    “Humans will only be able to percieve what god does through their own mind.”

    The same goes with everything in the world. We can only understand it all through the use of our own gray matter.

    “You can’t say that your understanding is the right understanding, its just your perception.”

    Your right, no one can. That’s fundamentally because there’s no verifiable evidence for the existence of one god over the others.

    “The only one that has the right understanding is our God jesus christ (whether you believe in him or not).”

    Ad Hock assertion, with out evidence your point is pointless. Consider that every other religion out there would disagree with this statement. Why are you right but they are wrong? Plus if such a figure actually existed I would expect more to have been recorded about him.

    “So you can try to use whatever facts and WORLDLY proof to disprove something SPIRITUAL….good luck with trying to fight one realm against another. Thats kind of like trying to use one atom to say that another couldnt possibly exists because this atom does. The two worlds dont meet so stop trying to compare them.”

    If they don’t meet then there’s no interaction between them. That means things like miracles, and god’s intervention does not, and can not occur. I don’t think you mean to imply this but it’s a natural consequence of your views. It would also imply that something like the soul has no physical hold on anything physical, which would imply that it has nothing to do with you and hence could not exist as it is describe by most other christens.

    “To take a step away from this, those who believe in the theory of sciences. You use your science as a way to explain EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING through what you see and here.”

    Yes because the only things I have to base my reality on are the things I observe. That’s simple common sense. Even by reading and using the bible I would be using my physical senses to do so. The only difference between me and you is I’ve reconciled that the physical world and the bible do not mesh. Since the bible gets so much wrong about the physical world, and perhaps more importantly has no single meaning, I simply have no way to use it to understand anything, other then perhaps the mind sets of Christians.

    “You use science as your own form of a god to explain everything for you.”

    No I don’t actually. I don;’t bow down and worship science, I don’t offer sacrifices to science, and I don’t kill people in the name of science. I’m, sorry but NO ONE seriously treats science as any form of god.

    :However science is nothing but a study, percieved and manipulated through your own mind to have your own understanding of something. The human understanding of most things scientific is this “if this and this matches, than these two things with similar patterns as the first experiment must also match” which is a great explanation of why trying to cure cancer is going so well, but I digress.”

    Um, no. Science is based around the idea of Modus Tollens, basically the whole idea behind science is that it gives us a systematic and logical method to understand the universe by showing that something is false. That’s why religion can’t be considered science, since it’s meaning is left to interpretation we can’t falsify it. Even when we falsify one particular sub set of beliefs, say a young earth, people will just shift their beliefs to something else, like old earth creationism, and decry the thought that the now falsified beliefs apply to them. Fundamentally, religion can’t explain the world because it doesn’t give a clear description to begin with.

    “The whole point of this is that you cant prove God doesnt exist.”

    I also can’t disprove Unicorns, Leprechauns, Gremlins, Thor, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or anything that exists out side the realm of proof. What I can do though, is prove that there are no Unicorns behind my bed, or in my room, or in my house. Once I’m given proper parameters I can show that something does or does not exist within those parameters. For instance with god, you and many others claim the he answers prayers and heals the sick. Yet when I run an experiment on this idea (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567) I find that prayer and belief in god have no real positive side effects. Hence it is safe to conclude that god and prayer does not interfere with the healing of the sick and dieing. Refusal to accept that is simply refusal to accept reality.

    “Humans naturally gravitate towards something spiritual because its in our soul. somewhere in there, you know that God exists. People wouldnt create an idea of an all-powerful being that created the universe out of thin air.”

    You don’t know much about human psychology then. We gravitate to the idea of the spiritual because we don’t understand the world. In order for many of use to make sense of it we come up with our own explanations. Since the thought of randomness scares many people they tend to look for an orderly reason for everything, something that mus involve intelligence. This way they can make sense of it all, this way they point to the hardships in someone’s life and feel good about it because they know it is the will of the god(s). Why else do people have such massive differences in interpretation of the spiritual?

    “Instead of trying to find answers, just to twist them so that you can understand them, just show people love.”

    Love is a loaded word in Christianity. It’s not all the same kind of love that I feel for my friends or family. The love as expressed in Christianity is based off of it’s god who according to the book a jealousy vengeful and wrathful god. These are not aspects of love in anyway shape or form, and that though that you would consider it to be is frankly, terrifying.

    “The foundation of Jesus’ teachings were on love, were they not? People try to depict these high religious figures as evil, but if Jesus is stopping people from stopping people from stoning a sinner, then that must say a lot about what people think is evil and good.”

    Your god is comprise of three individuals, at lease one of which killed children and support the killing of many people. (see passages: Isaiah 13, Leviticus 26, Exodus 12, etc…)

    “So, all I leave you with is this. Instead of trying to prove that something is wrong through worldly knowledge, speak to god from the heart and get answers there.”

    And what if one’s heart is corrupted by Satan, or whispers the words of a foreign god? Or is it only when your god is represented that its the truth? I’m sorry but physical evidence is all we have to go on, feeling and emotion can and do deceive.

    “Just show love to people over hate, and anger, and greed, and any other sinful natures and your life will be happy.”

    Good advice, and one that does not require a god to be true. People can do both good and evil works with out god, but I would argue that it takes the belief in god for someone to twist something good (such as the love between two people) into something evil (homosexuality as a sin).

    “Note that I may not respond back to messages. My rant is over woohooooooo”

    No comment.

  44. I consider myself to be a “Cautious christian” who does not worship the bible but does love God. Take a look at comment #6. This is very typical of christian belief and it is why I left the institutional church. The person who posted the comment puts the bible before God. Many christians have made a god out of the bible without even knowing it. The bible is filled with errors and contradictions and I have always wondered about intersex people. I can say right now if I ever came across an intersex person who touched my heart I would not consider it a sin to fall in love with that person, i would be grateful to God for them.

  45. for god so loved the world that he gave his only beggotten son that whosoever believe in him should not parish but have everlasting life.ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE YOU.NO MAN WOMAN BOY OR GIRL…GOD HAS THE LAST WORD.iF IT DOESN’T CONCERN YOU STOP WORRYING ABOUT IT.LET GOD HANDLE THAT SITUATION.

  46. I have been in church my entire life and am amazed at how much foolishness exists within. To study the bible is very different from reading the bible. Studying does seem to bring clarity on some issues; however, not all. To study the bible is a lifetime endeavor, and most Christians only practice certain moralities because that’s is just the way it is. I think that if we (those who love Jesus) were more interested in spending time meditating on intimacy with Jesus and asking for his love to fill our hearts, there would be less room for focusing on other peoples’ perceived “sin” and more people might want to engage with him in a heart-felt intimate way, too. I think the church in general has set people up for hating “Christians” because of its use of fear tactics, and that created a culture of fear that prevents intimate engagement/authentic inquiry. The longer I live, the more I realize that I don’t understand many things, and that makes me more humble. I have learned that when I am unsure, that too is a safe place and the only thing I can offer is love. If you’re a Christian, it’s ok to say, “I don’t understand” without feeling like you are failing God or betraying what your church teaches. Love ALL people. This is truth.

  47. Does the God of the bible exist?

    Problem 1.

    Male and female he created them in the image of God
    (Genesis 1:26-28)

    When the first act of disobedience plunged humanity and the natural world into chaos and separation from God did the curse of God include the possiblity of a persons inability to repent? Doesn’t the bible teach that all have the potential to repent?

    Christian doctrine teaches that natural calamity, death and disease is a consequence to the first act of disobedience.

    When a person discovers they have cancer, diabetes, heart disease or any other kind of sickness the person with these diseases still has the faculty of the will in tact and can turn to God and ask forgiveness of sins.

    The tumour itself is neither moral or immoral a disease.

    Where do people who have the disease of “intersex” or hermaphrodite fit into the biblical paradigm?

    A person with a tumor does not have to struggle with the question of “how do I repent from a tumor?”

    But what about the person with the disease of being neither male nor female according to the constitution of their genitalia? Does it fit the biblical picture that God calls all men to repentance? Would God place within the initial curse of creation the possibility of being born with a physical feature that is neither male nor female? And if so, why would he do so and how can one repent of a physical feature?

    Or is the biblical picture itself not a true picture of reality as it truly is?

    In need to explore this topic more fully but it seems impossible to reconcile the existence of intersexed people with the classic christian doctrines or is it? (without going into them) There are alot of Christian doctrinal truths that seem to fall apart because intersexed people exist. It would fit the biblical picture more “cleanly” if intersexed people did not exist. Maybe the God of the bible doesn’t exist after all or does he???

    Maybe a intersexed person can come to faith, acknowledge their bodies are “fallen” as a result of the original sin but “wait for the future redemption of our/their bodies” that the apostle Paul speaks about. So, even though intersexed bodies are ultimately a fallen biological situation these persons can come to faith in christ (of course), like the rest of christians, they too wait for all of creation to be redeemed? Non intersex christians cannot look down on intersexed folks since they should concentrate on their own relationship/faults with God!! This last paragraph is an attempt for me as a “intellectual christian” to reconcile classical christian doctrine, the infallibility of the bible and the belief in the existence of the God of the bible with the reality of intersexed people. It is a working hypothesis.

    Christians cannot escape the truths that homosexuality is clearly condemned in the bible ALONG WITH pedophilia, adultery, murder, infanticide and while Jesus might forgive such sins it does not mean they are therefore condoned by him. God hates ALL SIN and must punish sin if he is to be called TRULY GOOD. Remember God is LOVE but he is also HOLY. Homosexuality perverts gods original intention for male and females from a physical perspective and also from a psychological perspective as well. Neither are natural or “Good.”

    Tumors and ambiguous genitalia are in the biblical paradigm not gods original intention but through Gods present action of redemption they are (physical disease) in the process of being redeemed, as is the spiritual dimension, too ! , being redeemed. According to the bible and the new testament there will come a day when Tumors and ambiguous genitalia will be no more! Then, redemption will be COMPLETE. See revelation chapter 22 and…

    “We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our BODIES. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently” (Romans 8:23-25).

    Thanks,

    John
    Vancouver, Canada

  48. RE****If a physically intersexed person is allowed to have sex with anyone then they would at least outwardly appear to be having homosexual sex, and there is no way a good queer-hating fundamentalist Christian could support such an “abomination”.***

    I disagree with the first sentence since at the same time it could be said the person is having HETEROSEXUAL sex too! since both male and female genatalia are present. The bible would look at such a person and ask…

    1.Do you believe christ rose from the dead and are you a genuine christian?

    If so, you are redeemed!!!

    2.Are the people in the example given married or are they fornicating?

    3.Now that you are redeemed and loved by God since you are in fact a christian, what is you gender from your natural INTERNAL inclination/sense? Are you a women or a man? If your are a man then you must marry a christian women. If you are a women, marry a christian man.

    So, since God created men and women from both a PHYSICAL perspective AND a PSYCHOLOGICAL perspective it does not necessarily follow that a condemned homosexual act is being committed in the example given above! (more details are needed before we could decide)

    If a intersex person professes christ that person must acknowledge and turn from all their sin, discover their internal gender and marry a christian accordingly.

    Now they are a practicing christian, who has a physical abnormality as a result of the original fall but this person waits for the redemption of their body but in the meantime is able to walk in the joy of God’s continued love and grace while they walk in obedience to him!!!

    RE***there is no way a good queer-hating fundamentalist Christian could support such an “abomination***

    This is an attempt to discredit christianity altogether by identifying people who practice a “queer-hating fundamentalist” brand of christianity with the true Christianity and the true God of the bible.

    The fact of the matter is…

    When it comes to sin, God is IMPARTIAL. A sin is a sin is a sin. Yes, homosexuality is one of them.

    As a christian i can sit down and have a cup of coffee with a person who also happens to be homosexual and tell them that homosexuality is not “good”. I am called to love and be at peace with all men as much as is possible but i am not called to compromise the truth that homosexuality is sin. I dont over emphasize the sin of homosexuality to the exclusion of a whole other plethora of sins that both homosexuals and heterosexual are both equally capable of!!!! like…lying, stealing, murdering, gossip, Idolatry, materialism, greed, malice, hate etc etc.

    In summary, the God of the bible, while he is not fixated on the sin of homosexuality as some think he is, he nevertheless condemns it. Does that mean that christians should beat up on Gays? No, it should humble us that God has forgiven us OUR sins and our only response from there should be to be gracious toward other people and their sins. This is TRUE CHRISTIANITY NOT what the poster wants to PRETEND christianity is because of his own prejudices against it?

  49. RE****If a physically intersexed person is allowed to have sex with anyone then they would at least outwardly appear to be having homosexual sex, and there is no way a good queer-hating fundamentalist Christian could support such an “abomination”.***

    There is no conflict between God, the bible or christianity with a Married christian intersexed person having loving committed marital relations with their wife or husband. There is nothing God could condemn in this therefore it has God’s blessing and is sanctified by God. God makes beautiful what was once perverted and ugly!

    John
    Vancouver , Canada

  50. Note I’m quoting large portions of text to emphasize what I’m arguing about/against.

    To be fair that is arguable. From what I’ve studied the bible only tells of Jesus talking to the Jews directly, never the gentiles. It was the apostle Paul who supposedly started talking to them. Given the original Jews law and prophecy their savor would be theirs and only theirs, non Jew could not be saved by them because they are not of the chosen race. So it is possible depending on how you interpreted scripture that the teachings of Jesus are only for the Jewish race and not everyone can be saved. Bit of a red herring I suppose but worth pointing out.

    In contrast to the natural world, sure.

    By that stamen other afflictions such as homosexuality, which is likely partially genetic, but at the very least physiological, are not immoral.

    Well they don’t directly, there’s no scripture that directly refrences them and everything must be subsumed via induction and scripture. Problem is people are not god, and by the cristan definition of god (which is itself, self contradictory) they can not think like him and hence will make mistakes.

    Sure they do. Many groups of christens believe in prayer to cure afflictions like cancer. They believe the tumor is a physical manifestation of their sinfulness and that praying for god’s purification they can be cured. It’s complete and utter BS with no empirical backing, but it is what many believe, and their interpretations so nears I have found is well backed by scripture.

    I don’t know if I’d classify intersex as an actually disease persay. It’s really a much more complex issue then that.

    Bingo.

    No, your initial statement is more or less correct. The bible does not directly mention intersexed people, and with good reason. The initial Christian cult was based around a distorted view of Judaism, which itself only had provisions for male and female individuals. The idea of intersex was incompatible with the Jewish idea of women being more or less property and men being the head of a household.

    To be fair you can justify pretty much anything by sufficient abstraction. The bible can be used however you chose to use it. Personally I’d prefer the idea of it being inclusive rather than exclusive, but if you take a literal standpoint such a position is not possible.

    Pedophilia and infanticide are not condemned in the bible. Pedophilia is not mentioned even once, in fact the whole concept of pedophilia is a relatively modern psychiatric idea that was really pioneered by secularist. While it’s true that there were early societies which had restrictions on sex and sexual intercourse, marriage has rarely been so fully controlled until recently. We have law “books” from many early civilizations and in general there are no real prohibitions on pedophilia, least of all in christens and Jewish communities. As for infanticide I have only one real response: Psalms 137:9 “How blessed will be the one who grabs your babies and smashes them on a rock!”
    Of course there are more quotes then this but I think this one really strikes home the point.

    Only if it actually is a disease there are some out there that would not classify it as such.

    That’s great, but it makes no physical sense what so ever. Cancer is not caused by sin, but by damaged DNA, which it self is a necessary effect of BASIC chemical interaction. There is no way for our reality to support any other type of chemistry and still have us live. Intersexism is similarly based on chemistry, but the interactions are far more complex and interwoven. This is the main reason I can’t believe the bible, anytime it trys to describe the world on a physical level it absolutely fails. The only way people can “salvage” it is by alluding to some unobservable spiritual reality. Which by the definition used can not actually exist.
    -EGO

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