Evidence For Jesus: Introduction

Even after I lost faith in Christianity, for years I continued to take the existence of Jesus, at least as a real person, on faith. It wasn’t until the last couple of years when I saw that there were people who doubted his existence that I began to seriously question it.

I believe I can look at this issue objectively, because for me it doesn’t matter whether or not a human being named Jesus (or Yeshua) existed as the basis for the Jesus character in the Bible. I don’t believe in the supernatural elements of the Bible for a multitude of other reasons, and although Jesus not existing would be critical for believers, for me it is not.

I can’t promise to be perfect in my search for and examination of evidence, and I may or may not be able to draw a definite conclusion at the end of the search, but I will do my best to research any evidence I find, and I will try to judge it fairly.

You can help by leaving comments giving more details and different perspectives or suggesting more evidence I should look at. I already have a short list started including the perennial favorites Pliny, Tacitus, Suetonius and Josephus along with a few others, but I’m still looking for more.

I have already started researching, so whenever I feel I have sufficient information on a subject I will post it. I do not expect to have a complete and perfect understanding, but through research and then discussion of the issues I believe we can come to reasonable conclusions, and hopefully in the end we will be able to answer the question “Was Jesus a real person?”

Why O’Reilly is sometimes worth watching (the mistakes of others inform us.)

Of course, O’Reilly is totally incorrect about the law. The decorum of the capital building was violated exactly the same by the atheist sign as the creche. The establishment clause of the 1st amendment requires that any speech being permitted by the State in the capital building needs to be vetted under a premise other than religion.

This is exactly what should have happened: the only rational way to uphold the establishment clause is to prevent all religious speech promoted by the State. Why? Because there are BILLIONS of religious viewpoints and not enough room to hold them.

This is exactly what happened here.

Poor Megyn Kelly. O’Reilly set her up disrespectfully by calling her misguided, and in a previous encounter he called her a “cookie” or something. He has been misinformed by whomever he got his information from; but it’s important to keep in mind that the State shouldn’t be respecting any establisment of religion over any other. That means all or nothing.

All is reliably impossible.

Video of the Week: How to Convert an Atheist Part 1


How to Convert an Atheist Part 1

 

This is a video from a short series by FightingAtheist, who decided to create a series on how to convert an atheist from disbelief. Basically it is a series of quandaries that would lend themselves as actual evidence, i.e. those things that would manifest the supernatural, making it testable and therefore compelling as proof.

Nexus Zine – Edition Twelve

The Nontheist Nexus has released their twelfth and final issue of the Nexus Zine in its current format. Fortunately, they are not going away, and will be releasing content more frequently rather than saving it up and for a monthly zine.

This month largely focuses on Christmas, with several pieces by 19th century political leader, orator and free thinker Robert Ingersoll, along with an amusing account of a Christmas pageant performance and a somewhat disturbing interview with Santa.

Octavia also brings us a little dose of reality in the form of an article entitled Plant Talk: Seeding the Future.

As much as many of us would like to lose ourselves in our own happy little worlds for the holiday season, we must not forget that the world continues around us, and the problems we had in November are still with us, as urgently in need of attention this month as any other.

Now THAT’S a Museum!

Some of you (okay, probably none of you) have been tempted to go to Kentucky to visit Ken Ham’s Creation “Museum”, but now there’s no need to subject yourself to this monument to willful ignorance.

The Secular Alliance of Indiana University has taken one for the team and brought back some amusing video for us. Their video reveals a museum full of hilarious exhibits of mind boggling nonsense, all carefully designed to show us why we can’t possibly take the whole Bible as literally true.

Wait…this can’t be right. I’m being told that the museum is not trying to make that point? Apparently they actually believe this stuff. Wow. Just…wow.

At least the SAIU got to hear some funny conversations, including probably the funniest creationist quote I’ve heard in a long time:

Little girl: “Pappy, if Noah took all them dinosaurs on the ark, why aren’t there no dinosaurs now?”

Old Man: “That’s ’cause Jesus killed ‘em all.”

Mill Avenue Resistance Reports: Saturday, December 13th 2008

The Mill Avenue Resistance reports are written by Kyt Dotson as an extension of anthropological research on the population of Mill Avenue in Tempe, Arizona. Since the SFTS does their protests Friday and Saturday there are two reports a week. The supporting material not related to the Resistance reports can be found on the Under the Hills blog for Saturday, December 13th 2008.

As promised I went around and tried to ask as many people as I could about Temple at the Center of Time. Insofar, nobody in the Way of the Master group know what it is. I am thinking that Kazz and others will just have to read it as per Ross’s suggestion to know what it is. I am going to expand my search for critiques to tell everyone what it’s about, but I find it doubtful that many know. It seems to be an extremely fringe philosophical treatise.

The Resistance arrived on Mill at about 7pm, but I didn’t get there to observe until around 8:50pm.

JustStopAndThink.com

This group set up in front of the entrance to the Mill Ave Drum Circle again tonight between the Valley Art Theater and My Big Fat Greek Restaurant. Informally known as “Jesus Water” in the vulgar argot of the street rats, they interact with the public by offering free water to the masses.

I believe that Joe stopped and talked to Rob-roy and the retelling of his experience went something along the lines of. “He was cordial, but that stiffened rather after he learned that I was an atheist.” Although, I don’t know how much of that was transference; I don’t doubt that the conversation was readily friendly. Rob-roy is a contributor to the StreetFishing blog on Blogspot.

They manage their evangelism by talking to people who squeeze between them to reach the drum circle and also those walking past on the street. Especially those they invite in to receive the free water. Also, the water bottles contain tracts on their labels. The street rats tend to take them and then shred the labels off, meaning that I’ve never gotten one of my own from them yet—also as I never really need water I don’t feel the need to countenance taking one and then not using it.

I don’t end up talking to them very often, but they definitely have a presence on Mill Ave.

Marcus and Tish

(I hope that I am spelling everyone’s names correctly here.)

Also standing with the JustStopAndThink people handing out water were two others whom I’m sure that the Resistance have met before as they created a YouTUBE video involving them.

Didn’t have much time to talk to them, they were mostly handing out tracts. Our conversation did get interrupted a few times by a brand new drum circle visitor who is having a little bit of trouble integrating herself into the community. Mostly I just chatted to get my observations down.

The Way of the Master Evangelicals

The Resistance arrived in front of Borders. Saw Suzanne, her daughter, Erin, Al, Edwin, and others; the group ended up dismantling far earlier than usual; but there were some highlights here and there with the sound system setup. They caroled for a little while in front of Borders and then the Resistance set up their speaker and played some Edward Current videos.

There was some commentary about music vs. music playing. Al had set his speaker to play some sort of music, but then Kazz started playing something else, but seemingly louder (from where I was standing.) Creating a bit of a dissonance. However, that whole thing resolved rather quickly.

Then a few moved away from Borders to the Post Office—Edwin and Brian—but the moment the Resistance decided to move to the Post Office they left, with the words, “Oh it’s you guys.” Pretty much they managed to speak for a while, found at least one really drunk guy, who they tried to get to do the Good Person Test but he was a bit … drunk.

The night wrapped itself up in front of Urban Outfitters with mostly Al speaking on the microphone. He managed to stick the entire night out until the Resistance packed up near 1am.

We also had the weird experience of receiving some Pop-it microexplosives from a newcomer. And I must admit, it was me who distributed them to people because they are an awesome little device and a lot of fun. I did not do it to disrupt Al and his preaching, but at the time that I handed them out he wasn’t really speaking to people except in small groups.

Hanna, who gave me the Pop-its, said to Kazz that she had her respect for humanity restored when she found people resistance the preachers and had visited the STFS table at ASU a few times. I, for one, enjoy the presence of fun wackiness for Mill Ave.

There was also some strange shouting and shrieking from the Resistance when someone yelled “The power of Christ compels you!” at Kazz and the response was … interesting. I hadn’t known that he could produce such a lifelike impression of those TV evangelist preachers who tend to shout, in a drawling voice, pretty much the same thing.

I guess that they are just easy to parody.

Mill Avenue Resistance Reports: Friday, December 12th 2008

The Mill Avenue Resistance reports are written by Kyt Dotson as an extension of anthropological research on the population of Mill Avenue in Tempe, Arizona. Since the SFTS does their protests Friday and Saturday there are two reports a week. The supporting material not related to the Resistance reports can be found on the Under the Hills blog for Friday, December 12th 2008.

The STFS filtered through the book stacks at Borders on Mill Ave slurping up deals—the store, now a landmark of Mill for almost a decade, is set to be closed January 31st of 2009. Most of the books are at a 20% discount and gift shopping is in for the holiday season.

When they finally exited and spilled into the Ave, the Resistance proper fell into formation, grabbed their equipment and made their way to the Post Office.

Tonight was punctuated by the lack of any Mill Ave evangelicals.

“That’s a problem of thinking you’re made out of sugar,” Vince quipped. “You don’t want to go out in the rain.” Right before he offered to stand in for them, since Vince has long been Mill Ave’s oldest preacher, having earned himself the street name Preacher Man—instead he became the center raconteur for a multitude of discussions about various theologies as visitors came and went.

Niki, the journalist from the New Times, came out with some Dunkin’ Doughnuts and waited with everyone to get notes; but she seemed to have chosen a night lacking anything to write about.

The Resistance did little except form into a group around the speaker, softly playing music. Only Omar and Jim had much impact on the passersby with their signs—”Ah, here’s the infamous sign,” Niki said, seeing the black board with neon lettering in Omar’s hand.

“YOUR GOD IS NOT THE BOSS OF ME.”

The other side reads “RIP GOD,” and it served him well to attract more than one person to ask questions and drop into long discussions.

It did not appear that pamphlets were being handed out or in play.

Later into the night, the rickshaw driver, Ross, stopped to talk to Kazz and Vince. He had suggested a book to several of the Resistance and wanted to know if they had read it. In my notes the book’s name reads:

Temple At The Center Of Time: Newton’s Bible Codex Finally Deciphered and the Year 2012 by David Flynn.

The book weighs in at about 300 pages; and the summary is no less heavy. He mentioned that it gave him the impetus to change from being an atheist to a Christian just through reading it. I’ve given the information to various members of the Resistance for him—but none have taken him up on the offer or reading it yet.

The summary follows.

A belief that the ancients held unusual scientific knowledge, of which only fragments remain today, was held by many great philosophers and scientists who participated in the “scientific revolution”. Though research by these men led to great discovery, many were convinced that they were merely scratching the surface of an immense but lost pristine knowledge (prisca sapientia) somehow reflected in the architecture and remains of ancient civilizations. In “Temple at the Center of Time Investigations of Sacred Dimension, Revealed in Prophecy, the Temple of Jerusalem, and the Ark of the Covenant, from the works of Isaac Newton”, David Flynn uncovers what is sure to be heralded as one of the greatest discoveries of all time. Many books have investigated whether Newton believed that an original pure knowledge existed. Some conclude that he did in fact search for it, but that is the whole of their investigation. A few have written that Newton actually discovered something and try to fit his existing research into a prisca sapientia of their own design, claiming his beliefs fit modern realms of philosophy or eastern religions, but these speculations are not upheld by the body of his work. Although Newton had solved riddles of space, time, gravity, light and invented mathematics to predict the motion of objects, this was not the priscia sapienta. Since the time of Newton, no one has revealed the true form and nature of the original knowledge, or from whence it came until now. For the first time in history, Temple at the Center of Time uncovers what Newton was looking for and, in so doing, proves that pivotal events in history are unquestionably connected in time and space to Jerusalem. Newton didn’t know it. The key was right in front of him.

If anyone would like me to, I will query people who belong to the Christian religion of various mythological schisms and see if they know about the book. I guess also people who are familiar historically with Issac Newton might be worth asking. Kazz will probably not be reading this unless he can get the book on tape, so unless someone gets their hands on it we won’t have any insights into what Ross wants to elucidate.

While Ross spoke with Kazz and Vince, I split my attention between Joe and that conversation. Primarily because I wanted to hear what Ross wanted to say—but Joe certainly didn’t. The reasons for which bent from the usual witnessing speeches, mirror speech, and Biblical conversations that Joe would have felt the need to interrupt with his own knowledge. Out of the entire Resistance he has a great deal of Biblical scholarship and uses it like a truncheon against arguments involving translation and etymology.

In his backpack he has a New American Bible, an English-Hebrew copy of the Tanakh.

Brad did set up his electric guitar with the speakers and play a for about half-an-hour idly, but nothing else came of the use of the speakers.

The entire group eventually exited stage left at around 2a.m.

 

An Atheist Who Loves Christmas?

Taking Christ out of Christmas doesn’t bother me. *   

I love this season. I love the festivities, the decorations, the celebration of friends, family and food. Most of us live frenzied lives and only pay attention to each other one month a year, in a figurative orgy of goodwill and merriment. We have set this time aside to be the season of giving.

I even fully support the materialism of it (and here I may diverge from general consensus). Whatever your feelings on the commercialization of Christmas, exchanging gifts is a substantial part of the season. Of course, some people will take it to the extreme. Mottos like “diamonds are a girl’s best friend” make me want to gag – I much prefer electronics and books. Gifts are an expression of our love and friendship, and the best gifts truly are those that cost little and show how much you care. Plus, it’s just plain fun!

Winter festivals, for those of us in the Northern hemisphere anyway, have been a tradition since humans began marking the passing of seasons, a way to celebrate the previous seasons of abundance and preparing for the cold and often scant offerings awaiting. The end of the old and the anticipation of the fruits of the new year.

There is a lot to love about Christmas, or Solstice, Yule, Saturnalia or what have you. The sense of companionship as we gather together to feast and make merry. The community spirit we share. The cultural and religious rituals we cherish. Take what you like best about the season and run with it. 

So I encourage atheists, agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and others too numerous to mention, to celebrate the season together.

Merry Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. Sprightly Yule.

* I also fully support anyone’s right of observing Jesus’ birth, and any other religious holiday. By all means, go to town.**

**A little town of Bethlehem, even. 

 

The Hell in Allie’s Eyes

Saturday night, during the Mill Avenue Resistance event, I saw a disturbing example of the painful consequences of an insidious piece of Christian doctrine. I saw one of the horrors of Hell.

Allie and her husband were visitors from Texas. They were slightly inebriated after a night out on Mill Avenue, but while this probably magnified emotions, it was not their source. The couple seemed very surprised and confused by what we were doing and what we believed. So much so in fact that they got stuck with us for the rest of the night.

At first Allie, who borrowed one of our microphones, seemed pretty angry at us. As the night wore on though, she changed her tune a lot. She pulled a couple of us aside individually, apologized for her initial tone, and talked to us in a more personal and heartfelt manner.

I believe she genuinely cared for us, and that was touching. What I could not appreciate was her terror on our behalves. She just couldn’t understand how we could go through life without God. She thought that we and our children would need Him (which was more understandable after she said that her son had almost died), and above all she was terrified that we were all going to Hell.

“I have been through Hell,” she said, her hands clasping mine in a white-knuckled grip, and I could see Hell in her eyes. She told me that she would never be back to Phoenix again, but that we would never be out of her thoughts and prayers. If she never manages to break free of her religion, then I hope she does forget about us, just to spare her the pain.

I could tell that her belief in a loving god and Heaven gave her comfort, but her belief in Hell caused nothing but pain and anguish. Terrible, unending horror which she must face not after death, but every day of her life. It was as if she was trying to rescue us from a burning building, and we refused to come out. The problem is, the flames she sees are all in her head.

At the end of the night as we prepared to leave, she still couldn’t let go of me. She hugged me tightly over and over, clearly suffering from the effects of fire and brimstone Christian dogma laced with alcohol.

Although I would have liked to believe even just for the moment just to ease her pain, I couldn’t lie to her. She was slightly comforted by my admission that (as Christians often request of me) I did and would continue to ask God to reveal Himself to me, so I hope that will at least help absolve her of her guilt at watching us walk off down the road to Hell. As we trudged off down that grim path into the darkness though, her eyes were still sparkling with tears.

We have a fairly adversarial (but generally friendly) relationship with most of the evangelical preachers we see, but this experience reminded me again how difficult these issues could be for some of them.

I still believe that some are preaching either for their own salvation (since the Bible commands them to do it), or to be part of one of the more evangelical communities, but Allie reminded me how much this must hurt some of them. The dogma of Hell for the unbelievers and wrongly practicing believers can be a very powerful and painful motivator for a Christian who genuinely cares about other people.

In fact, when I was a young Christian I had very similar feelings, and while I didn’t yell abusive nonsense and tell people they were going to Hell, I did try to get people to go to church and read scriptures, and I tried to dissuade them from “sinning”.

I guess looking back on it, I was probably fairly annoying at times, and I can still remember how it hurt me to know that the people I tried to help were deaf to my pleas. What really hurt was not so much that they weren’t listening to me, but that I believed God would punish them for the things they were doing. What hurt me was Hell.

It still hurts me to see people harming themselves, but it hurts in a much more human way. I no longer fear an eternity of torment in Hell for myself or anyone else. While not believing in an afterlife makes some earthly tragedies even more painful, I am glad to be rid of the needless dread that the dogma of Hell brings.

Preachers often tell me that I “know the truth”, that “God wrote it on my heart”, and I just choose to deny it. I assure you, if I actually knew these things to be true then as disgusting as I find the concept of Hell, I would do my best to keep myself and others out of it. However I, like at least 80% of the people in the world, do not have the ideas of the Christian god or its sickening Hell “written on my heart”, and there is no credible evidence to convince me that any of it exists.

If there is a god out there, it hides extraordinarily well, and if there is a Hell waiting for the unbelievers, then that god has chosen to put me there. It has given me no way to believe.

The fact that I am not worried about that should tell you how likely I think it is to actually be true.

Allie, if you ever read this, I sincerely appreciate your concern, but I think it is misplaced. If you want to help me, please try to do as much good as you can in this world. If there is another after this, then it will be what it will be. I am not afraid.

Video of the Week: A “Deconversion” Part IV, A Child’s Testimony


A “Deconversion”: Part IV, A Child’s Testimony

 

This is a video in a multi-part series of videos done about a girl critiquing the mores and traditions of the Mormon mythology. She identifies a multitude of problems disaffecting individuals. Carefully crafted intros with quotes, piano music, and then gogreen18 speaking to her audience through oval spectacles and thoughtful prose.

She includes videos about sexism, unegalitarian behavior, the indoctrination of children, and other abuses of the human condition cited by many critics.

You can also start with the first one: A “Deconversion” Part I, Driving Guilt.